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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2012 9:42:27 GMT -6
I've been lurking for some time and thought perhaps Dark Cloud's description of LSH without the fence and monument (as well as marker changes) might make an interesting comparison photo. Hope this works!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 24, 2012 10:49:43 GMT -6
Thank you!
My only change - subjective - is based on the removal of the ten on the right, representing the Sweet padding as I suggested. But, doubtful those specific ten were conveniently the padding. I'd propose moving some back from the center where the officers' markers were coagulated, thinning that out some, dribbling towards Deep Ravine.
Although I'd think it clearer on Wyman's photo, when you vector in on the officer heavy clump at the top of the hill on the perimeter and not in any center of a defense, and two threads heading towards Keogh and Deep Ravine (who knows going, coming, both) it is a much more depressing visual, given that the easier earth to dig in was the criteria for the early wooden markers.
Even so, just losing ten markers and moving the six or so representing Custer and crew to the top strikes me again as elements in motion shot off the horse from north and east upon reaching the top. Looks a lot like Calhoun and Keogh areas, with men killed in motion.
Boston was referenced as hundreds of yards away and Reed may not have been found at all, but moving their stones to the lower left serves the purpose.
Much appreciated and hope it inspires other opinions. Inferior to mine and badly dressed in soiled clothing they'll be, of course, but it's Christmas Eve and I'm feeling condescending to inferior (or, as you might say, 'other') opinions and those that hold them. As good as it gets from me.
Have a moderately pleasant holiday, everyone, and best wishes for the New Year. Now, freshen this and note that even Santa's coat is more Bronco Orange this year. And next.
Merry Christmas.
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Post by quincannon on Dec 24, 2012 11:58:05 GMT -6
DC: I have always considered Eric von Schmitt's paintng to be most like my personal vision of the last moments of the battle. I think it is also pretty much what you refer to in your posts on the subject, and is pretty much how the markers on the second picture (above) portrays the aftermath. Regardless, of the location of each of the markers are depicted though, the soldiers were certainly more spread out then they currently are inside that fence.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2012 12:07:56 GMT -6
You're welcome, DC! I'd like to try this again using WY Man's photo but don't know how to contact him for permission. Wishing all a very Merry Christmas!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 24, 2012 13:55:32 GMT -6
Send him a PM. Not a big deal, though, you did a lot, and many thanks.
If you took, say, five or six from the center and dribbled them down ending above the green bush, it doesn't look much different from mine and makes what, I think, is my point: that they were ascending the hill and got hit by a lot of fire, they bunched up behind, and did what they could before the end.
Strikes me as two lines, one from Keogh, one from (to, or both) the Ravine. It doesn't look like a defensive formation/position held for long at all. To me, anyway. And: the clump of brass at the top just looks ominous to me. Under fire, they don't gather in full sight or at all when surrounded with no cover.
Buffalo hunt.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2012 16:54:14 GMT -6
PM sent. I'd like to make this interpretation correspond with the photos from WCF (referring to stake positions) as far as practicable but now my eyes are giving up.
If my memory holds, originally only the officer graves were staked and others during subsequent burial attempts. That adds another degree of difficulty but regardless, the concept is intriguing.
Best Regards
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 24, 2012 17:45:42 GMT -6
Open question if the term "buried" is valid, never mind the stakes.
It's never going to be accurate, in any sense beyond a tone and impression. We have testimony the officers were more or less glumped around Custer or near, and the early photos show stakes down the way. It's just that the monument, fence, and cluttered marble markers give a feeling of solid defense I don't think valid or, more important, borne out by testimony and accounts. Also, ten too many.
If you approached the field from the east and came up towards the crest, saw the Custer group and then as you got near the top saw the others floating down the hill and south, I can see more easily how Benteen and others thought it a catastrophe and not much of a defense at all.
It's like those who say "Be quick" is just like "Come quick." They insist on saying 'come quick' because they know by feel and use it's different, and just pretend otherwise. They get really angry when made to stick to what the note said. It's tone is hardly hysteric or we're in danger of death.
If the redone photo is used in place of the other all the time, preferably with my choice of placement, it looks way different and will anger folks as well. They'll claim its not different, not that different, not different enough to..... until they realize they're stuck with the layout by photo and testimony. It IS very different.
Haven't counted, but there should be 42 or 44. Cannot recall if that includes the ones up north and east.
There are groups not much smaller on Keogh's and Calhoun's sites and nobody declared them a Last Stand because they weren't bunched so together.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 26, 2012 14:19:25 GMT -6
Well done, feral! I'm glad you joined us!
Diane
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 26, 2012 14:33:57 GMT -6
Now that I've arguably sobered up and the general feeling of an ill performed colostomy due to 55k calories a day for the last few settles in to my enjoyment and now yours, did you take out 10 stones? There should be no more than 42 all told. The other ten belong to Reno's guys or elsewhere.
You can't get anyone to do anything annoyingly time consuming for you alone and for free any more. Whole country's going to hell, I tell ya.
Chocolate covered tarantula with venom white sauce. Cute, Merkel. But still no armadillo.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2012 14:45:18 GMT -6
Diane, thank you, spent many enjoyable hours reading the threads and wanted to contribute something.
DC, I count 44 including the Boston and Reed markers... 42 on the hilltop and slope. And yes I do this stuff for free!
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Post by wild on Feb 24, 2013 3:03:00 GMT -6
feral Nice piece of work. One interesting thing it does is that in showing the presence of the spectators it emphasises how untenable was the position.Like shooting fish in a barrel. If that ridge line was not held they were brown bread. It is also another nail in coffin of the Ford D supposed jaunt. The Ford D theory has Custer returning and in motion towards keogh.That he would halt in that position defies not only tactical logic but the laws of gravity. It is cartoon like in that it has the officers suddently screeching to a halt unexpectedly with the command caught by surprise shooting past them and down the slope. The scene and position is not unlike that of Keogh's. How from that shambles people can conjure up maneuvers of such complexity as the GNJ is a triumph of imagination over dull reason.
One other thing about the markers and the spectators.The markers give a distorted image because they are small in comparison to a trooper.[look at the spectators] If the markers were human size the scene would more resemble what it was ,a terrified clump. There's a job with which to while away a lazy Sunday afternoon.Put a spectator where each marker is.Can it be done? Cheers
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 8:23:03 GMT -6
Thanks, wild. Some time back I started a graphic showing the markers without the paired ones and spreading them out to accomodate the 5 or 6 bodies found on the top of LSH and adding 20 or so to Deep Ravine. The more I dug into the history of the markers, the more I realized my graphic would be an exercise in futility. Sweet placed the markers apparently thinking he was marking actual graves which had already been dug up and the remains moved to LSH around the granite monument. We know some of the bodies were moved because digging was easier ... we don't know how many for certain and where they actually fell. Although the markers are all we really have (and historical accounts) to create our theories, one would have to take into account their errors in placement etc...
Making markers human sized gives me a few problems because the distance would mean keeping a 6 foot spectator in perspective as I work farther away and closer. Not sure how to do that. Best, c.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 9:46:17 GMT -6
Just for the heck of it... 42 on the ridge with the lower left being Boston and Autie.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 24, 2013 9:51:29 GMT -6
Hi Feral, That looks like the entire strength of F Company + the HQ. Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2013 9:57:08 GMT -6
Hi Ian, I took the 42 number from Godfrey's account of the post battle scene. Best, chris
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