Archeology on the Battlefield

[meade21]

Other than the archaeology done by Mr. Fox after the fire in the 1980's has there been any other dig done on the battlefield?

What do you think of his findings?

[fred]

Meade,

Yes, there has been. Much smaller, but significant nonetheless. One of them was done in 1992 or 1994, I forget which, and it was more of a metal-detecting hunt, much of it-- thank heavens!!-- on private property. Since it was done by Douglas Scott (who was partnered with Fox in '84-'85) and Peter Bleed-- two archaeologists-- their findings are significant.

Personally, I am a very strong adherent to the Richard Fox theories simply because-- from a military standpoint-- they make imminent sense, and he supports them with his on-the-ground findings. That's significant, regardless of how you want to interpret things. The significance lies very much in throwing everyone else and their theories on the defensive, the onus now being on the naysayers to prove what they cannot.

The Scott/Bleed findings of the early '90s tend to prove-- or at least lead to and do not disprove-- the Fox arguments, especially in his theory of Ford D, something he drew more from Indian accounts than from archaeology. The Scott/Bleed findings also go a long way in "proving" my own ideas and theories... obviously, I am pleased with that.

And by the way, there has also been some work done in the Reno-Benteen areas.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[joewiggs]

Meade, you may wish to check out, "They Died with Custer" by Scott, Willey, and Connor, as well.

This book explores the ages, country of origin, and numerous informative graphs that illustrate a plethora of interesting facts which seem to breath a new life into the dormant remains of the men and boys who fell upon the battlefield.

[fred]

Nov 19, 2012 12:30:52 GMT -6 joewiggs said:

... and boys who fell upon the battlefield.

"Boys"? Enough to be emphasized in bold type-face? I would like to know how many... and who, by name. Sounds very much like you know.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Dark Cloud]

WAIT! WAIT..... The popcorn isn't done. Hold on. No, I don't have butter, only margarine. Yes, well, tough, it's all I have. Okay, two bowls, one without salt. Beer? Coke? Well, what then? Doesn't that normally come with a colored paper umbrella? Forget it, Clan Schultz, neat. Yes, there's more.

Okay. Now, you want to know if Wiggs has a clue about what he's saying? Good luck. I'm more interested in dormant remains. 'Remains' means, you know, dead, and you cannot be dead and dormant. Christ could, I guess. But nobody else.

Wiggs yearns to write crappy, pretentious verse for Hallmark Cards. A "plethora of interesting facts." One interesting fact: breath and breathe are different words with different definitions, being different parts of speech. Who knew? Not Wiggs.

This is a great comedy franchise, Wiggs is like Inspector Clousseau attempting to appear brilliant, but only if Clousseau were more stupid beyond ken, unlucky, and even more clueless in his self evaluation. Oh, and not funny. Also, unable to construct a disguise that fools anyone or a personality to create interest in doing so.

[fred]

Nov 19, 2012 14:21:51 GMT -6 Dark Cloud said:

... breath and breathe ...

I didn't have the heart. Besides, I knew you could do so much more with it than I could.

... Wiggs is like Inspector Clousseau...

"Does yer duwg bite?" This one does, sweetheart!

Best wishes, DC,
Fred.

[wild]

Inspector Clouseau perhaps?

[Yan Taylor]

I don’t know if this data is right or not, hell I can’t even remember where or when I found it, but anyway it supposed to give the ages of the men who served with the 7th at the battle in 1876.

17 = 1
18 = 8
19 = 7
20 = 8
21 = 193
22 = 96
23 = 59
24 = 53
25 = 38
26 = 65
27 = 72
28 = 47
29 = 36
30 = 31
31 = 18
32 = 15
33 = 23
34 = 15
35 = 14
36 = 8
37 = 8
38 = 1
39 = 5
40 = 6
41 = 1
42 = 1
43 = 1
44 = 2
45 = 5
46 = 1
48 = 1
49 = 1

Richard and Fred, can you remember the film ‘’The Pink Panther Strikes Back’’ when Clouseau is seduced by the beautiful Lesley Anne Down playing a Russian Agent, Lesley Anne turns up at his flat dressed to kill and asked about Clouseau's role in the French resistance during WW2, when she gets him into bed she whispers into his ear, was it hard in the resistance and Clouseau say’s yes but not a hard as it is now.

Ian.

[Gatewood]

Ian: Assuming this is correct (or close to it), the thing that immediately jumps out at me is the high numbers of 21/22 year olds, as it touches on the discussions that we have had over just how many raw, or at least relatively inexperienced, men were at the LBH. At the time the minimum age required for service was 21, although, as can be seen from your list, a number were able to enlist younger by lying about their ages. In that sense I assume that your list is the result of someones research into the true ages, as I would think that any official documents, such as the regimental returns, would list them at their "claimed" ages. In any event, it is apparent that a very large proportion were in the 22 or younger age range and could therefore not have been very experienced - at soldiering in general, let alone in combat operations.

[Yan Taylor]

Hello Gatewood, looking at these totals the number of men adds up to 840 (I also did the totals I have for 7th in the field for 25/6/1876 and come up with 623 or 624).

RHQ; 8 (9)
RENO HQ; 12
A; 43
B; 42
C; 44
D; 47
E; 40
F; 39
G; 40
H; 44
I; 39
K; 33
L; 45
M; 55
TROOPER PACKERS; 92

So maybe the men younger than 20 and older than 40 were left behind, I really don’t know, maybe my totals are out, I hope Fred has a look and can come up with any discrepancies.

Ian.

[Gatewood]

Ian: I'm assuming that those in their 40's were mostly the civilian packers/interpreters/doctors, with maybe a few very senior enlisted men, as I know that only 3 officers (of those present at LBH) were over 40. Those were DeRudio (44 or 45), Reno (43) and Benteen (42). A large portion of those in the 36 - 40 range were the captains and senior 1st Lieutenants, as well as Custer, but those numbers would have to be flushed out a little by civilians and/or senior enlisted as well.

[alfakilo]

I am working my way slowly through the Fox book.

Best cure for insomnia that I've seen yet.

[fred]

Ages never meant—or mean—anything to me. A 20-year old with one year’s service is no different than a 25-year old with one year’s service. And before we begin bemoaning the under-aged troopers in Custer’s command, let’s not forget that kids enlist today at 18. A soldier’s value is a function of environment (including background) and training, so whatever your aims or objectives in discussing age, they play no part in the LBH. Remember, as well, this was an all-volunteer army… for whatever that is worth.

I do not know where you got your numbers, Ian, but they are not accurate.

Prior to departure from FAL on May 17, 1876, the Seventh Cavalry had assigned the following:

HQ—10 officers, 4 enlisted men
A—3 and 56
B—3 and 71
C—3 and 66
D—3 and 65
E—3 and 61
F—3 and 68
G—3 and 66
H—3 and 55
I—3 and 65
K—3 and 69
L—5 and 67
M—3 and 63
Band—0 and 17

This totals, 48 officers and 793 enlisted men. Of those numbers, 15 officers and 79 enlisted men were on temporary duty or on leave. Another single officer and 8 enlisted men were assigned to Department or detached duty.

That means, leaving FAL under the colors of the Seventh Cavalry, the regiment looked as follows:

HQ—7 officers, 4 enlisted men
A—3 and 51
B—2 and 63
C—2 and 60
D—2 and 61
E—2 and 53
F—2 and 57
G—2 and 59
H—2 and 47
I—2 and 51
K—2 and 62
L—2 and 63
M—2 and 61
Band—0 and 14

This totals, 32 officers and 706 enlisted men.

Then we have the PRD. Left behind, plus AWOLs, sick, and further detachments, were:

HQ—1 officer and 2 enlisted men
A—4 enlisted men
B—19
C—10
D—11
E—4
F—9
G—16
H—2
I—5
K—21
L—6
M—7
Band—0 and 14

This totals, 1 officer and 130 enlisted men.

So… at wake-up on June 25, 1876, the Seventh Cavalry looked like the following:

HQ—6 officers, 2 enlisted men
A—3 and 47
B—2 and 44
C—2 and 50
D—2 and 50
E—2 and 49
F—2 and 48
G—2 and 43
H—2 and 45
I—2 and 46
K—2 and 41
L—2 and 57
M—2 and 54

This totals, 31 officers and 576 enlisted men, making it a total blue-shirted force of 607 men. You detach and re-assign from there.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Yan Taylor]

Thanks Fred, I have deleted the word document them totals came from, with having a bit of time on my hands I decided to clean up my hard drive and that’s how I found those figures, they have gone now only to be replaced with some amended figures provided by your good self.

So the RHQ would contain these officers and men before they split into battalions;

HQ/Staff
LTC. G A Custer
Maj. M Reno
1st LT. W W. Cooke - Adjutant
1st LT. E Lord – Assistant Surgeon
Dr. J M DeWolf
Dr. H R Porter
SGM. W H Sharrow
Chief Trumpeter Sgt. H Voss

Fred, would you count both Doctors DeWolf and Porter as officers?

One last thing guys, when you look at the pack train and see the different totals of men detailed by their respected Companies, have you noticed that Company B provide no trooper packers? The answer is simple you may say, Company B was the pack train escort so they had no need to provide any men, but who looked after the Company B baggage they must have had some supplies and equipment, did they just grab a couple of mules and pull them along with them as they travelled.

Ian.

[alfakilo]

I've just finished the Calhoun Hill section of Fox's book...and I found it strangely abbreviated at the end. Fox goes into excruciating detail in analyzing artifact distribution and whatever conclusions he might draw from them.

Right up to the end where the hill is overrun..and then that gets a short shrift from Fox. It seems he wanted to maintain his theory of tactical disintegration and had little to say as to how this happened at Calhoun Hill.

But then he does give some detail about the body distribution as was found after the battle...and the number of shell casings, etc found along with the bodies. His description of the body arrangement on Calhoun Hill seems to argue against his disintegration theory. Odd, I thought.

Now that I've gotten past the minute detailed analysis of shell and bullet findings, the book's pace has picked up a bit...good thing, too. It was rough sledding there for awhile.

I find it odd again that Fox would put so much effort into linking artifact findings with battle theory...all the while admitting that relic hunting over the years may well have rendered any attempt at reaching conclusions from these findings moot.