|
Post by chris on Mar 21, 2015 11:06:05 GMT -6
Since it would cost me 3.95 to read each link, I'm guessing a duck owns stock in the NYT.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Mar 21, 2015 11:16:07 GMT -6
Are you calling my buddy a Quack?
|
|
|
Post by chris on Mar 21, 2015 12:00:56 GMT -6
Are you calling my buddy a Quack? Sorry, could you send me his bill? Best, c.
|
|
|
Post by Beth on Mar 21, 2015 12:01:35 GMT -6
herosrest--not all of us suscribe to the NYtimes so we can't access those articles. If we wanted to see them would have to pay for them at $4 a pop. No way. Besides very little of it has to do with LBH Seriously have you ever thought of building a website with all your information so a reader can access it all at once?
Beth
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 21, 2015 18:43:40 GMT -6
The LBH, had nothing to do with Reno's punishment and you know it. For newbies, uneducated, and those not having the time to read all or your links you are attempting to convict Reno unfairly. This is truly beneath you. Plus it has nothing whatsoever to do with CYA. Can't let you get away with it. You have spent half a page talking a lot saying nothing! A true waste of your time and ours. Prosecution like this is why O.J. got off the first time. Regards, Tom Reno's defence against Whittaker brought immense influence and information to the study of the battle, and much of it is skewed in various fashion to destroy Whittaker's time data. This has royally screwed with academic study ever since, let alone less professional work. Authors of fiction have a complete field day. Reno had some unfortunate problems and could not keep them to himself. I do not have to like or hate him, to form opinion and in fact to judge him. He retreated from the valley without orders. Let's leave that since he managed after the battle to get himself into a mountain of unfortunatness's which it is perfectly fair to publish. Custer has equally been villified for his wrongdoings and obviously was no angel but on 25th June 1876, he was CO of a regiment in battle and soldiers follow orders.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 21, 2015 18:50:39 GMT -6
The LBH, had nothing to do with Reno's punishment and you know it. For newbies, uneducated, and those not having the time to read all or your links you are attempting to convict Reno unfairly. This is truly beneath you. Plus it has nothing whatsoever to do with CYA. Can't let you get away with it. You have spent half a page talking a lot saying nothing! A true waste of your time and ours. Prosecution like this is why O.J. got off the first time. Regards, Tom Reno's defence against Whittaker brought immense influence and information to the study of the battle, and much of it is skewed in various fashion to destroy Whittaker's time data. This has royally screwed with academic study ever since, let alone less professional work. Authors of fiction have a complete field day. Reno had some unfortunate problems and could not keep them to himself. I do not have to like or hate him, to form opinion and in fact to judge him. He retreated from the valley without orders. Let's leave that since he managed after the battle to get himself into a mountain of unfortunatness's which it is perfectly fair to publish. Custer has equally been villified for his wrongdoings and obviously was no angel but on 25th June 1876, he was CO of a regiment in battle and soldiers follow orders. Beth - On many (most) of the links.... there is a blue button ( View in Time Machine), down the page. Beneath it a link thus - r, download a high-resolution PDF of the individual article. Which will do exactly that. No charge, which isn't like Custer is it! Most are freebies and give a flavour of the reporting and interesting and surprising stuff.
|
|
|
Post by chris on Mar 21, 2015 19:08:17 GMT -6
Beth - On many (most) of the links.... there is a blue button ( View in Time Machine), down the page. Beneath it a link thus - r, download a high-resolution PDF of the individual article. Which will do exactly that. No charge, which isn't like Custer is it! Most are freebies and give a flavour of the reporting and interesting and surprising stuff. Just checked 3 at random - no such option on this computer
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 21, 2015 21:10:51 GMT -6
Although this CYA targetted GAC, specific reference to his many sins predated LBH by some margin of time, but include some major derelictions in duty, extending to what could be construed as murder. Reno could equally be rash, knife fighting Indian scouts for example. fisticuffs with fellow officers. Thank god duelling was outlawed and Courts of Inquiry instituted. Officer training is a very expensive lark. These two, Custer and Reno, have been as bad as one another in regards means justifying their ends.... (think about that one). Both hoped for, if not expected, higher certainly higher office. Neither seemed particularly adept at keeping nose clean or remaining upwind of scandal, so were they as bad as one another.
People do CYA by second nature but the idea, given, that I have somehow tainted Reno or his memory; have been unjust towards him, or prefer Custer over Reno might be correct. It isn't but might be. Of the two, each is alluring in their own way - that is to say that both men had truly fortunate opportunity in 19th Century life. Both made themselves infamous to modernity and the struggle righting these perceptions is a real wok of art. The considerable aspect of LBH history which shall always benefit Custer was that he never had an opportunity to explain what took place to those who found fault with him. Would he CYA or take it without a blindfold........ Reno worked very quietly with ink, to plaster the muck over everyone else but himself and Benteen where a stiff upper lip for the rest of his days was an unfathomed wisdom. He was a very seriously flawed individual and despite immense effort it remains somewhat dishonest to blame Custer for the LBH debacle in spite of his own well advertised failings.
God only knows how his Court Martial would have gone. What can truthfully be said is that there were too many hostiles and they didn't run away. It is ridiculous to criticise me in broadening consideration of Reno, in a topic intended to do likewise with Custer. I am being properly and entirely balanced. SSI.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Mar 22, 2015 3:44:10 GMT -6
HR, we differ in two areas. You keep saying Reno had no orders to retreat, breakout, break contact. I will tell you again, he needed no orders, he was in charge of this action, it was his call. He could do as he deemed necessary due to circumstance. Area two, any of the later stuff had no baring on the LBH. He was cashiered from the service for bad behavior after the RCOI. No judge would merge the two cases. Nor should we, unless we have an agenda. I don't try to marry Custer's antics that got him bounced from the service 9 years before to his failures at the LBH. He was reinstated, so we move on.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 22, 2015 7:04:24 GMT -6
Reno had few casualties, around half his men off the skirmish line and lining up like ducks in row to be shot at, stood besides their horses and more men filtering into the timber as the officers realised things were turning against them because the skirmish line had evaporated around them. Why wasn't Reno out in the valley offering one on one combat with Black Moon or Gall. Why was Reno out of view of events in the valley and organising horse in the timber. Horses cannot shoot, can they. They have to be held or tied to trees. The best thing that could have happened was the horses be shot and stampeded forcing a walk out or wait on Benteen.
Anyway, we know that Reno's judgement was impaired by the alchohol he had consumed, and alcohol makes people emotional. Reno became emotional and panic caused him to flee the valley, to abandon his mission without orders, to prevent his position and attack from being supported as promised. At best it was a very poor performance, and the casualties occured once the retreat was made so it was the most horrendous mistake which lost half Reno's command and all of Custers. Reno saved himself, as any one would. Everyone of us in that situation would be running away as fast as we could and hurrying up to change underwear as soon as possible. To get below a high bank, behind thick trees or hide in a wallow. We would all get the hell out of a situation like Reno found himself in, sheltered in timber below a high bank and with fifty men around you, unable to see anything beyond a few ards away. We would all run, save our tails and scalps.
Bearing in mind 7th Cavalry's history of fights on the Plains, Custer found himself in exactly the same situation in 1873 and it all went very well for the Cavalry, so what was different at LBH - nothing was different other than Reno.
Reno did not save his command, he got more than a third of it killed. The exact same situation existed in 1873, which Custer turned into a Win. Could the Cavalry have won at LBH? Reno did need orders to retreat from battle as a component of the regiments attack. Hewas to fight and be supported, he was not given an option to retreat. He was not given an option to leave the battle. What did the retreat achieve?
|
|
|
Post by Colt45 on Mar 22, 2015 7:10:22 GMT -6
HR, officers have a duty to accomplish a mission with minimum casualties. They also are charged with using their judgment. When it becomes obvious a mission can no longer be accomplished, they have a duty to preserve their troops and to make the best of a bad situation. That is exactly what Reno did. He was not ordered to charge and die to the last man. He was ordered to charge the village and he would be supported by the rest of the regiment. He charged the village. He was not supported by the rest of the regiment. In the face of around 1000 hostiles with no support, I would do the same as Reno. I would attempt to save my command, regroup, and prepare to fight again.
He saw, or was informed, that Custer was across the river up on the bluffs. Custer was of no help to Reno and he knew it. He also did not know where Benteen was, could not see Benteen, and would reasonably believe Benteen did not know where Reno was. Therefore, he is on his own. The situation dictated that he abandon the charge and attempt to hold his position. When it became obvious he was surrounded and would soon die in place, he ordered a breakout, which saved most of his command.
It is pure speculation to state that he could have held the timber, Benteen would have seen him there, been able to reach and reinforce him, and eliminate the need for the breakout and movement to Reno Hill. It is also ridiculous to state he disobeyed orders by not continuing to charge. The Indians had something to say about all of this, and did.
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 22, 2015 7:25:28 GMT -6
It is pure speculation.................. Reno was drunk. yes or no?
I read yesterday about a relative of his sueing the army for $25 million because Reno was cast in poor light.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Mar 22, 2015 7:58:22 GMT -6
Reno drunk, only speculation. The troops pulled off the skirmish line in proper order, M company being the last to withdraw after covering the other 2, they never turned their backs on the enemy. It was done in proper order.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by dave on Mar 22, 2015 9:39:03 GMT -6
HR You make the statement:
Anyway, we know that Reno's judgement was impaired by the alchohol he had consumed, and alcohol makes people emotional.
We who? Were you there to witness his actions and behaviors? If not, then you are speculating at best and rumor mongering at worst. Regards Dave
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 22, 2015 14:55:46 GMT -6
It is stated fact that he was consuming alchohol. Therefore...... let me see, now........ he was drunk. He may have perfectly well been able to conduct himself but it is fact that he was extremely rash under it's influence. For example, striking fellow officers. Knife fighting with scouts. Applying for Custer's job - jolly bad taste. Blaming defeat on Custer's tactics and blaming Gibbon for Sitting Bull getting away from Little Bighorn. Arguing with Gibbon. Advising Sheridan that Terry did not have clue how to conduct a campaign. Assaulting civilians. Upsetting Mrs. Custer. It was Reno's fault and he was never going to accept that.... he never did. Benteen was at Ford A. Two miles away? It's the other side of an enduring set of opinions. He should have waited, although the loss of his drinking buddy, shot in the head in front of him, un-nerved the guy. I would have been gone like a frog up a pump, out of there but I was not in command of a battalion of troops opening offensive operations in support of a major action. A major action.......... get it. Probably not. Be well, I strongly disagree your opinion about Reno and am not a Custer fan. Fine read here - written by her highness - archive.org/stream/generalcusteratb00cust#page/n3/mode/2up
|
|