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Post by montrose on Feb 10, 2015 4:05:07 GMT -6
LTC Custer was highly regarded as an Indian fighter? By who? By himself, with his relentless self promotion. He played the media like a fiddle.
LTC Custer was convicted by court martial for gross incompetence as an Indian fighter. I would not call that an indicator of high regard.
His Indian experience is the 1867 failed campaign, the Washita fight, the post Washita muddled mess, where he spent his effort chasing Indians who were not at Washita and ignoring those that were. In 1873 we have the pajama fight and the failed attack on an Indian village on 11 Aug 73.
If we compare his experiences with Mackenzie or Crook, we get a very different view.
LTC Custer was a very good Civil War officer who was not capable of adjusting to unconventional warfare.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 5:23:22 GMT -6
LTC Custer was highly regarded as an Indian fighter? By who? By himself, with his relentless self promotion. He played the media like a fiddle. LTC Custer was convicted by court martial for gross incompetence as an Indian fighter. I would not call that an indicator of high regard. His Indian experience is the 1867 failed campaign, the Washita fight, the post Washita muddled mess, where he spent his effort chasing Indians who were not at Washita and ignoring those that were. In 1873 we have the pajama fight and the failed attack on an Indian village on 11 Aug 73. If we compare his experiences with Mackenzie or Crook, we get a very different view. LTC Custer was a very good Civil War officer who was not capable of adjusting to unconventional warfare. He was highly regarded by Terry and Sheridan, and many others. He commanded the 7th against the largest Indian village that ever gathered, wouldn't that be some indication of the high regard and confidence his superiors had in his abilities? Did his adjustments at Washita not show an understanding for Indian warfare?
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Post by montrose on Feb 10, 2015 7:28:27 GMT -6
Scarface,
Your last dozen posts are, at best, arrant nonsense. Once in awhile, you should read more, write less. Your posting style is to post some ridiculous assumption, get 20 replies explaining why you are wrong, and ignore all responses.
I keep posting responses that you ignore, either you do not understand, or your emotional rage makes you incapable of understanding rational thought.
So let's take one example. You claim that the majority of the members of the 7th cavalry were ACW veterans.
Prove it.
Just a reminder: 1876 is 11 years after the ACW. And the Army had an annual desertion rate of 25%, though the 7th was higher.
Respect goes both ways, just like tracers. If you want a conversation here, stop treating all the other posters here with contempt.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 10, 2015 8:21:02 GMT -6
How did they know it was the largest village ever gathered? Did Sheridan and Terry say to each other: “well the largest Indian village ever assembled is down there, it is so big that we just have to send Custer!”
I don’t mind saying that I agree with you over his manoeuvre to confuse the Indians after the Washita fight, but could that have been taught to him (or all officers as a standard) at West Point?
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2015 8:44:25 GMT -6
Scarface: Please understand that an officer or a person can be held in high regard, and still not be the man for the job.
I can hold you in high regard as the man who fixed my lawn mower 11 years ago, but that does not mean that you are the man I need to fix my plumbing today, especially when I learn that every attempt you have made in these last eleven years to fix plumbing has ended up with leaky pipes and faucets that drip. Fighting the Army of Northern Virginia is like fixing lawn mowers, and fighting Indians is like fixing plumbing. Both require a tool bag, but that is where it stops.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 11:17:27 GMT -6
Scarface, Your last dozen posts are, at best, arrant nonsense. Once in awhile, you should read more, write less. Your posting style is to post some ridiculous assumption, get 20 replies explaining why you are wrong, and ignore all responses. I keep posting responses that you ignore, either you do not understand, or your emotional rage makes you incapable of understanding rational thought. So let's take one example. You claim that the majority of the members of the 7th cavalry were ACW veterans. Prove it. Just a reminder: 1876 is 11 years after the ACW. And the Army had an annual desertion rate of 25%, though the 7th was higher. Respect goes both ways, just like tracers. If you want a conversation here, stop treating all the other posters here with contempt. Respectfully, William I withdraw my statement that the "majority" of the 7th was battle hardened from their Civil War service. The majority of the officers were and a minority number of the soldiers.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2015 12:02:42 GMT -6
Then Scarface you back yourself into the corner of defining battle hardened. They were also 11 years older.
A good number of officers who served in World War II, in combat, fell apart in Korea. I believe every regimental commander that took his regiment to Korea in July-August 1950 were relieved for cause save three. One was killed. Some regiments went through two or three before they stabilized. I don't remember how many battalion commanders were relieved for cause, but it was a bunch. It seems that the Immun Gun did not fight the same way the Germans did, and those folks could not adapt. Unless you are current in being battle hardened it makes little difference.
You must also understand that a unit composed of currently battle hardened men, is not necessarily a battle hardened unit. Being battle hardened is a good start, but units must operate together for some little time, get used to each other, build confidence that those on their right and left will be there when needed most. Some of these companies of the 7th Cavalry had not operated together for years, and that is a bad place to be.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 10, 2015 12:31:50 GMT -6
Scareface, you say the majority of officers, had ACW experience, suppose you put a $1,000.00 donation if you are wrong to the Air Force aid Society. You show me the receipt and I will do the rest of your homework. Otherwise do your own correctly and prove me wrong. A little help below.
Wallace entered West Point in 1868. Varnum entered West Point in 1868. Godfrey entered West Point in in 1863 after several months service Hare entered W.P. in 1870 Dr. Porter joined service in 1873 Sturgis entered W.P. in 1871 Edgerly entered W.P. in 1866 Crittenden entered W.P. 1871
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 10, 2015 12:35:31 GMT -6
This illustrates the problems of cliche, jargon, and templates. It's easy to fall into the trap of using the same modifiers with the same nouns whether or not they fit. It's a real problem for media to cover combat or the military in general, because they confuse knowing the acronyms and jargon as knowledge. True all over. Decades back, reviewing music, the term "soaring" was welded to the term saxophone, and you could not remove it because the plantlife expected it and liked it. True even if the solo did not remotely soar and rather hawked phlegm and was, in any case, actually a clarinet.
If you make an effort to avoid cliche - like "battle hardened" - it forces you to find other words to accurately describe the soldiers in question. Since most Indian fights can barely be called more than a few shots and long chase - hardly a battle at all - few obtained that status fighting Indians. These guys had endurance and a degree of skill to survive, but nobody thought the Army of the 1870's was a match for the AOP. Sheridan didn't think much of either the French or the Germans in 1870 and said neither compared to his old Army. And however adroit they became fighting Indians, they'd have gone round the bend as quick as anyone under prolonged heavy artillery shelling through the night in Flanders. If you're a vet and encounter something terrifyingly new and unexpected, that might unhinge them quicker than newbies under fire for the first time who didn't view experience as handy scar tissue and so easier each time and now experience a sense of betrayal.
I've contended from the start that anyone can have a bad day and panic after a career of exemplary behavior in combat and this ought not be the only recalled incident. It's not impossible Custer and his men ended sobbing in pain and frustration and soiling themselves. So what? Understandable and negates nothing previous. People aren't brave or cowards, they're both. Things as petty as low blood sugar can reduce a normally stolid guy into a whimpering child in certain conditions.
The Indians wasted their limited manpower by crippling themselves and encouraging others to do so at the Sun Dance, the definition of pointless ritual. They were tough, brave, and near useless in battle thereinafter with torn back muscles and pectorals. Was that courage and demonstrative of combat/warrior expertise or was it masochism that conveniently precluded high expectations in battle thereinafter?
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 13:49:46 GMT -6
LTC Custer was highly regarded as an Indian fighter? By who? By himself, with his relentless self promotion. He played the media like a fiddle. LTC Custer was convicted by court martial for gross incompetence as an Indian fighter. I would not call that an indicator of high regard. His Indian experience is the 1867 failed campaign, the Washita fight, the post Washita muddled mess, where he spent his effort chasing Indians who were not at Washita and ignoring those that were. In 1873 we have the pajama fight and the failed attack on an Indian village on 11 Aug 73. If we compare his experiences with Mackenzie or Crook, we get a very different view. LTC Custer was a very good Civil War officer who was not capable of adjusting to unconventional warfare. Exactly how many Indian battles was Custer personally involved in--not the 7th, but Custer himself? I agree that Custer was a good CW officer but he wasn't the only one who wrap his mind around unconventional warfare. I personally think that it was a whole institutionalized mindset that existed at the time. Basically, they believed Indians were uneducated savages therefore they could not wage any sort of battle, they could only hit and run. That mindset alone is a huge factor in Custer's failure at LBH. Beth
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2015 13:57:10 GMT -6
Scareface, you say the majority of officers, had ACW experience, suppose you put a $1,000.00 donation if you are wrong to the Air Force aid Society. You show me the receipt and I will do the rest of your homework. Otherwise do your own correctly and prove me wrong. A little help below. Wallace entered West Point in 1868. Varnum entered West Point in 1868. Godfrey entered West Point in in 1863 after several months service Hare entered W.P. in 1870 Dr. Porter joined service in 1873 Sturgis entered W.P. in 1871 Edgerly entered W.P. in 1866 Crittenden entered W.P. 1871 From what I can tell, there were 31 officers at the LBH. The following officers all served in the ACW; GAC, Reno, Benteen, Tom Custer, Weir, Godfrey, Mathey, Calhoun, Cook, Yates, DeRudio, Keogh, Smith, McIntosh, Moylan, McDougall, French, and DeWolf. So with 18 having CW experience, that would make a majority. If I'm wrong or missed any, let me know.
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 14:10:53 GMT -6
The Indians wasted their limited manpower by crippling themselves and encouraging others to do so at the Sun Dance, the definition of pointless ritual. They were tough, brave, and near useless in battle thereinafter with torn back muscles and pectorals. Was that courage and demonstrative of combat/warrior expertise or was it masochism that conveniently precluded high expectations in battle thereinafter? I would never underestimate the empowerment that people feel when they believe that they have god, gods or even justice on their side. Beth
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 14:33:15 GMT -6
Scareface, you say the majority of officers, had ACW experience, suppose you put a $1,000.00 donation if you are wrong to the Air Force aid Society. You show me the receipt and I will do the rest of your homework. Otherwise do your own correctly and prove me wrong. A little help below. Wallace entered West Point in 1868. Varnum entered West Point in 1868. Godfrey entered West Point in in 1863 after several months service Hare entered W.P. in 1870 Dr. Porter joined service in 1873 Sturgis entered W.P. in 1871 Edgerly entered W.P. in 1866 Crittenden entered W.P. 1871 From what I can tell, there were 31 officers at the LBH. The following officers all served in the ACW; GAC, Reno, Benteen, Tom Custer, Weir, Godfrey, Mathey, Calhoun, Cook, Yates, DeRudio, Keogh, Smith, McIntosh, Moylan, McDougall, French, and DeWolf. So with 18 having CW experience, that would make a majority. If I'm wrong or missed any, let me know. I'm curious, how many of them held staff postions and how many were 'battle hardened.' I know that you love the image of battle hardened vets but I wonder if its more of a case of butt hardened from so much time in the saddle. Maybe you should think about a mix of time worn veterans and young unproven pups. Evenn if they were 'battle hardened' in the CW, they were no longer the same men. More than ten years have taken place and the battles they had been facing in the Indian Wars had been totally different from CW battles. What happened at LBH on June 25, 1876 defied every notion they had about what the battle would be on June 24, 1876. Another thing also to remember that is a major difference between the CW and LBH is that the Indians were not known for taking prisoners. When it became evident that the Indians were going to stand and give battle, every member of the 7th knew they were fighting for survival and if they lost the battle but lived, they weren't facing Andersonville, they were facing unspeakable horrors that they were well familiar with. Beth
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Post by chris on Feb 10, 2015 14:33:29 GMT -6
... The Indians wasted their limited manpower by crippling themselves and encouraging others to do so at the Sun Dance, the definition of pointless ritual. They were tough, brave, and near useless in battle thereinafter with torn back muscles and pectorals. Was that courage and demonstrative of combat/warrior expertise or was it masochism that conveniently precluded high expectations in battle thereinafter? DC, wish I could answer that. You did bring something to mind that was posted (my apologies as I do not recall by whom) about the Army being able to recruit while the Indians had to, so to speak, grow their own. It would be interesting to know the ages and numbers of the participants with damaged bodies from the Sun Dance. Best, c.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 10, 2015 14:42:18 GMT -6
Scarface,
I listed Godfrey above staff/orderly duty hardly counts he entered W.P.in 63. DeRudio, joined in Aug 64 and spent all but 2 months training "Colored infantry" before being mustered out In Key West, FL. McIntosh, was the chief clerk for COL. Daniel Rucker, in DC a post he held throughout the war. Calhoun spent 1861-64 traveling in Europe, yep he was there. Harrington, Hodgson, Lord, Porter, Reilly, all no go. Gibson, also a cup of coffee. I am proud of you, did your homework. One of your other criteria was battle hardened. The first 4 I mention here from your list certainly were not. I will concede, but it was a push, at best as you framed it in your post.
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