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Post by Dark Cloud on May 22, 2012 9:36:28 GMT -6
yantaylor, you are correct and I was wrong. I was lavishing my attention on Omaha beach discussing the DD tanks, by which I mean I apparently forgot that there were other points of activity and interest during D Day. While the facts were correct for Omaha, there were, indeed, many others who did not fare so poorly. No excuse, I was wrong.
Speer's production went up till 1945, so wild cannot contend that precision bombing was very effective.
Second, saturation/carpet bombing industrial sectors is no more indicative of precision than carpet/saturation bombing suburbs. Precision was an intent, promised by manufacturers because it worked hypothetically on clear days in Kansas and was assumed to improve with practice. Precision was assured by the Army because they wanted it to be true. Further, at Essen and other huge military or tech targets, precision wasn't remotely needed as anything hit was good for us.
Most of those supposed precision bombing runs against specific plants were at such low altitude it was near dive bombing, a refutation to the beloved 'doctrine'.
Swinging huge flights of bombers around in clouds, under fire from plane and flac, complete ignorance of wind and weather on the way down, rendered the whole thing nonsense: there was zero technical ability to be accurate at altitude. At lower altitudes more pilots panicked and released bombs early. Sometimes they finked out altogether and went to Sweden.
wild is praising Britain now for courageous bombing; be on the lookout for first person singular, as he is as one with them.
wild damns the British for giving 'secrets' to Japan. One wonders what they were. What were they, given the inferior ships Britain made during that period? Here, wild retains the Third Person: the Brits.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 22, 2012 9:50:00 GMT -6
Apology accepted darkcloud, and thank you.
Dan, here is a list of what the Americans faced on Omaha Beach.
WN60: 1 x 75mm gun 1 x 20mm AA gun 1 x French tank turret (Torbruks) 3 x Mortars (Torbruks) 1 x Mortar position Flame-throwers
WN61 1 x 88mm gun (bunker) 1 x 50mm gun (bunker) 1 x French tank turret (Torbruks) 2 x MG Positions (Torbruks) Flame-throwers
WN62 2 x 75mm guns (bunkers) 2 x 50mm guns 3 x MG positions 1 x MG Positions (Torbruk) 2 x Mortars (Torbruks) 1 x twin AA MG emplacement Artillery observation post Flame-throwers
WN63 Company HQ post Radio station
WN 64 1 x 76mm gun 1 x 20mm AA gun 2 x Mortars (Torbruks)
WN65 1 x 50mm gun (bunker) 1 x 50mm gun (emplacement) 1 x 75mm gun 2 x Mortars (Torbruks)
WN66 1 x 50mm gun (bunker) 1 x AT gun ? 2 x Tank Turrets (maybe MK IV) (Torbruks) 2 x Heavy Mortar positions 1 x double concrete MG embrasure
WN67 320mm Rocket position
WN68 1 x 50mm gun (bunker) 1 x AT gun ? 2 x Tank Turrets (maybe MK IV) (Torbruks) 1 x double concrete MG embrasure
WN69 1 x AA gun MG positions
WN70 1 x 75mm gun (bunker) 1 x 75mm gun 4 x MGs positions (Torbruks) 2 x Mortars (Torbruks) 1 x 20mm AA gun
WN71 1 X Observation post MG positions 1 x MG position (Torbruk) 1 x Mortar position (Torbruk) 1 x double concrete MG embrasure
WN72 1 x 88mm gun (bunker) 1 x 50mm gun in double concrete embrasure MG positions 1 x MG position (Torbruk) 1 x double concrete MG embrasure
WN73 1 x 75mm gun (bunker) 3 x Mortar position (Torbruk) MG positions 1 x Observation post
WN74 2 x 75mm guns
You can see why they had such a hard time of it, most of these positions got missed by the bombing, and given the fact that the whole area had bluffs running along its length (which was the high ground the Germans held) I am in awe that these men managed to take this beach.
Ian.
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Post by benteen on May 22, 2012 10:14:37 GMT -6
Ian,
Fine post, thanks for taking the time. It adds to the reality of the horror these men went through to go that 300 yards to the sea wall.
Be Well Dan
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Post by lew on May 22, 2012 10:29:08 GMT -6
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Post by fred on May 22, 2012 14:08:59 GMT -6
... (gasp) Operation Petticoat... One of my all-time favorite movies. How I enjoyed Cary Grant!! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on May 22, 2012 14:34:52 GMT -6
DARK CLOUD Speer's production went up till 1945, so wild cannot contend that precision bombing was very effective I can and will. German production of war munitions may have increased but it was only around 50% of it's capability.Precision bombing decimated it's potential. The aluminium used in the antiaircraft defences would have built an estimated 10-15000 more fighters.And your Speer said of the bombing that it had created a third front without which the USSR could possibly have been knocked out of the war. Could I also draw your attention to operation Pointblank which destroyed the Luftwaffe and gave the bombers a free run over the target area.
wild damns the British for giving 'secrets' to Japan Nowhere do I condemn the Brits. Some posts back you posted a false claim and when asked to provide the quote you were unable. I'm asking you for the quote here to support your claim.If you don't provide it or withdraw the claim I'll take it that you have used a deliberate untruth.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 22, 2012 22:06:37 GMT -6
I went to my own hard drive and found these right off in one of the early AAO threads from years back, and all in one thread, I believe. Sufficient to prove Wild has condemned the Brits.
In any case, it isn't just Markland but anyone here from those years who'll recall Wild's accusations. It's actually worth going back to check out his aborigine fail.
AAO
"...the raison d'etre of the British empire being no different from that of the Vikings,rape and pillage"
"And Britania's Huns with their long range guns sailed in from the foggy dew."
"England is the international joke.Hankering after it's lost status and ****ty empire by hanging onto Uncle Sam's hind tit."
"Sure thanks to the British dept.of cultural affairs who provided such gems as the penal laws,plantation and ethnic cleasing,and designer famine." (Not Ireland's fault in any way.)
And just recently he accused some Brits of giving the Japanese 'secrets.' What secrets? That's treason, as qc said, considered a remark that meets all requirements of 'dissing.' And this would apply to the eternal British ally as well. So what secrets did they give the Japanese?
But anyone who wants to read his genocide accusations, there's several threads there and here. Use the search functions. (I posted one previously last week on the 7th Cavalry's genocide.) Wild knows they're there, he's just hoping nobody will look. I, on the other hand, encourage such research.
"German production of war munitions may have increased but it was only around 50% of it's capability.Precision bombing decimated it's potential." The after war investigations do not support you. What Speer said was that the biggest problem was that Hitler did not go to 'total war' and tried not to deprive the civilians of much at all, including hair oil which was a petroleum byproduct of some sort and burnable in internal combustion engines. Otherwise, I cannot guess what the 50% references other than a guess.
It wasn't precision bombing. That did not exist outside of dive bombing, and that was because of the low altitude release. It was saturation, carpet bombing on target grids. There were some few very low altitude raids because high altitude carpet bombing would not have even a remote statistical chance of hitting them. Nothing precise about high altitude bombing back then.
That they called it precision bombing does not mean it was any more than Hitler calling his party National Socialists made them left wing or remotely socialist.
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Post by wild on May 22, 2012 23:29:49 GMT -6
DARK CLOUD
wild damns the British for giving 'secrets' to Japan
AND
And just recently he accused some Brits of giving the Japanese 'secrets
Note the difference.
Now my source was a program on the BBC the other night.I remember that one of the agents names was Rutland .He was also known as Rutland of Jutland.Now if you google Rutland of Jutland you can read all about his activities. The other agent was a British minor aristocrat and member of the house of Lords.I forget his name but Ian might be able to help us there because it seems he will be able to view the program in a day or so. Now it is clear from your post that you are in a funk and panic.Look I have no wish to embarrass you but you have wronged me and the least you can do is apologise and we'll say no more.
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Post by wild on May 23, 2012 2:57:19 GMT -6
While DARK CLOUDcontemplates his hard drive, meanwhile back on the bombing range. It matters not at all what level the bombing aircraft are at or how many aircraft are involved or the manner in which the target is engaged.The target is selected as opposed to the RAF random bombing,and engaged with sufficent accuracy as to make the exercise worthwhile.That is precision bombing and that is the tactic used by the USAAF with measureable results sufficent to nobble German war production. To suggest that it was useless is to suggest that the high command of the Air Force were fools sending young men to their deaths on fools errands.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 23, 2012 2:58:10 GMT -6
I watched the show last night, it was very good, I won’t bore you with details but here is some data on the program. This what the Daily Telegraph said about the show: The fall of Singapore: the Great Betrayal told the story of Forbes-Sempill and one other fellow traveller, a pioneering carrier pilot called Frederick Joseph Rutland, who went off to help the Japanese perfect the techniques they later applied against the American fleet at Pearl Harbour. In doing so, the film drew heavily on recently declassified documents and also rather over-egged the consequences of their treachery, the obtuseness of the British government being more than a match for Japanese skulduggery when it came to undermining defences in the Far East. In any case, Forbes-Sempill, in particular, seemed to occupy that murky no man's land that still exists between the promotion of the British arms industry and pre-emptive assistance to the enemy. He also exemplified another national trait that hasn't entirely disappeared, which is the tendency of the British upper crust to look after their own when a chap is unfortunate enough to back the wrong horse. Forbes-Sempill assisted the Japanese with their anti-espionage activities. He was also an anti-Semite, with ideological reasons for sympathising with the Axis powers, but when he was caught making calls to the Japanese after the outbreak of hostilities, Churchill intervened to soften the terms of his punishment. While Rutland, who'd worked his way up through the ranks, was interned, Forbes-Sempill was offered the choice of resigning his naval commission or taking up a position in northern Scotland, where he could do no harm. Floreat Etona, I guess. Here is a link about Sempill: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Forbes-Sempill,_19th_Lord_Sempill Personally I would have strung him up and given his wealth to the dead service men’s family’s from the Royal Oak, Repulse and Pearl Harbour. One part of the show that really intrigued me was, how a British agent had studied the defences at Singapore, and how susceptible it was from a land attack, his findings were never used, nothing new there then. Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 23, 2012 3:30:53 GMT -6
Nice link Lew, it looks all so peaceful now, but imagine that horizon filled with ships and landing craft coming your way. Here is some data on the battle to take Widerstandsnest 62: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_SeverlohIan.
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Post by Gatewood on May 23, 2012 6:41:52 GMT -6
Wild,
Sorry for the delay in replying to your original question about British assistance to the Japanese, but my son just graduated from college and we have been in moving mode.
After reading your post I was thinking that you probably had the Semphill and Rutland situations in mind, but, after reading through the remainder of the posts, I see that you and Ian have largely answered that for yourselves. However, I will add a few points of clarification.
Both Semphill and Rutland were prominent in British aviation circles during WWI and afterwards, and their "assistance" to the Japanese started out innocently enough in official advisory capacities in the early 1920s. However, after that came to an end, they continued on in more of paid informant roles (The Japanese called them "observers"). Semphill, in particular, seems to have also developed some sort of ideological attachment or fascination with the Japanese, which was probably another motivation in his actions.
The British were aware of all this, as they were literally reading the Japanese diplomatic mail, but this placed them in the age old conundrum of espionage as to how to utilize the information that they had without tipping off the Japanese that they had it and jeopardizing future efforts. As a result, they largely swept it under the carpet and didn't do a whole lot with it. As Ian said, this was particularly true in the case of Semphill, but it was probably not so much a case of the upper crust "taking care of their own" as it was an effort at avoiding what would have been an extremely embarrassing and sensitive admission that a British peer was selling information to a foreign government. Also, it is still not clear as to exactly what information may have been provided to the Japanese, but I suspect that it was fairly insignificant in nature and was another reason that the British chose to not make a big deal of it and expose their sources.
However, in later years, as more information has become available, one of those conspiracy theories has grown up around it, where something with an element of truth about it is sensationalized and blown out of proportion to any sort of reality. In particular, all of this business about Semphill/Rutland being responsible for Japanese sucess at Pearl Harbor and Singapore is absurd on the face of it - the Japanese were quite capable of planning those successful attacks on their own, without the assistance of a couple of minor British functionaries. However, as you indicated, it has begun to fall into one of those History Channel/BBC "It can now be revealed" or the "Sole survivor of the Little Bighorn" nonsensical categories.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 23, 2012 7:06:38 GMT -6
Neither funk nor panic. You said you'd never dissed England, I found sufficiency in the earliest records you had, directed people where to look if you deny those are your quotes. The ones provided are mostly in the Springfield carbine thread on AAO. No wrong done, there are worse ones in there as you know. Just think 'genocide,' of which you also accused the 7th in that recently provided quote of yours.
I cannot pretend I knew of the Sempill treason, but since it was just revealed on British television, I cannot fault myself for that. I asked. Gambling debts, it seems, and the information not all that important. But, treason.
If anything, you've had it easy.
Recently, you find distinction between this:
wild damns the British for giving 'secrets' to Japan
and..
And just recently he accused some Brits of giving the Japanese 'secrets
What is the difference that you find so important? How does it exculpate you from anything?
I have received no PM, from you or anyone, in a very long time. I prefer and request email.
No, Wilde, calling something precision bombing does not make it precision bombing. Nor 'random' bombing, which would mean no designated target at all. When the former proved impossible, they did not resort to the latter but to area/carpet/saturation (terms used interchangeably and only recently acquiring meaningful distinction) bombing which worked insofar as making civilian life awful and putting pressure on the enemy and mathematically increasing the chances of hitting desired military targets.
If there was anything like 'precision' bombing possible, they could send one plane at night to bomb the target, save bombs and lives, and they could not. No one back then could, absent dive bombers or coming in so low and level it was near dive bombing in that the bombs were released at about the same altitude from the target.
The air forces concluded after the war the bombing was mostly a waste and men indeed died to no particular constructive end. Apparently that's not unusual in war. But the potential was there, some damage was done to affect the enemy, just nowhere near what was promised and what the military pretended so long after. Even Time-Life became apologists in their series on WWII.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 23, 2012 7:09:08 GMT -6
Yes Gatewood the program could have (as the daily telegraph said) ‘’ rather over-egged the consequences of their treachery’’. But I would have still hung Semphill. Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 23, 2012 7:43:34 GMT -6
The topic of espionage has never really appealed to me to be honest, I had never heard of Semphill at all till Richard asked me to watch the show, but when the arms race began around 1900+, various European countries did spy on each other, especially when Naval fleets started to develop bigger larger more heavier warships, the period from 1900 to 1914 and 1919 to 1939 was the time for nations to develop newer and more potent weapons, Ships, Submarines and Aircraft began to improve and nations had to try and keep up otherwise they would fall behind, their goal was to improving their own forces as the storm clouds started to gather over Europe (and as it turned out Asia).
Ian.
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