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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 7, 2012 14:26:22 GMT -6
Hunk: It's the kinder, more gentle side of me. I don't know what I was thinking. Chuck, remember the words of Alan Marshall "Beware of people you've been kind to" and don't trust that cute looking squirrel.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 7, 2012 14:30:02 GMT -6
Hunk: That sounds something like another one of my favorites although I don't know where it originated - Trust everyone, but always cut the cards.
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Post by montrose on Jun 7, 2012 14:52:42 GMT -6
Trust everyone, but always cut the cards.
A favorite saying of Teddy Roosevelt
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 7, 2012 14:57:34 GMT -6
Trust everyone, but always cut the cards. A favorite saying of Teddy Roosevelt That'll get you on Mount Rushmore alright!
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Post by herosrest on Jun 10, 2012 14:08:11 GMT -6
The squirrel is actually hanging. ;D It was Benteen who arrived at 2pm, since Wallace used Maguire's report (itinery) at RCoI, the confusion has never ceased. Why did Wallace use Maguire's information? That was why Wallace was recalled. The RCoI discredited Whittaker's study of times by referring to the 2pm time in Whittaker's report, which was the time Benteen arrived. Be well. Yes, I can see that your squirrel appears to be having a ball and it brings tears to my eyes. I repeat, read the context properly. Maguire used information from the survivors not the other way around. Maguire WAS NOT THERE. Well as can be expected. Be sensible. Hunk Maguire wasn't there, as you appreciate well. Wallace was there, and at the Inquiry, as 7th Cavalry's Engineer Officer on 25th June, referred to the report by Maguire written on July 10th after Benteen told him and Terry that he arrived near the village at 2pm. Wheh Maguire reported that, it wwas wide open to misunderstanding - exactly what took place, you see. The guy who was there used information from the guy that wasn't. So, why did Wallace do that?
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 10, 2012 15:06:52 GMT -6
Yes, I can see that your squirrel appears to be having a ball and it brings tears to my eyes. I repeat, read the context properly. Maguire used information from the survivors not the other way around. Maguire WAS NOT THERE. Well as can be expected. Be sensible. Hunk Maguire wasn't there, as you appreciate well. Wallace was there, and at the Inquiry, as 7th Cavalry's Engineer Officer on 25th June, referred to the report by Maguire written on July 10th after Benteen told him and Terry that he arrived near the village at 2pm. When Maguire reported that, it was wide open to misunderstanding - exactly what took place, you see. The guy who was there used information from the guy that wasn't. So, why did Wallace do that? I cannot see that Wallace did any such thing as there is nothing to that effect that I can find in his RCOI testimony. He refers to the Maguire map a few times but appears to make no mention of Maguire's Report. He refers to his own itinerary, but in answer to the question "is that memorandum you refer to the original itinerary" he replied "No, sir, it is a copy. I did not compare it, but Lieutenant Maguire said it was an exact copy." Other than that the only reference to '2 o'clock' I can find in his testimony is with reference to the time the Lone Tepee area was reached. If you can quote chapter and verse of the information you have cited, I will be happy to comment further. Hunk
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Post by herosrest on Jun 11, 2012 14:52:33 GMT -6
The copy was of Maguires report, which detailed an itinery.
I'll dig out the page details, if you really want, but you have obviously already referenced it.
regards.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 11, 2012 15:44:10 GMT -6
The copy was of Maguires report, which detailed an itinery. I'll dig out the page details, if you really want, but you have obviously already referenced it. regards. No, no, no, the copy Wallace refers to in his testimony is of his own itinerary. On page 540 of the RCOI record in the version by Nichols: Questions by Major Reno Q. State if you kept the itinerary? A. I did. Q. Give it for the 25th of June, 1876... The testimony that follows all refers to times of various events etc., then: Questions By The Recorder Q. Is that memorandum you refer to the original itinerary? A. No, sir, it is a copy. I did not compare it, but Lieutenant Maguire said it was an exact copy. The point here is that Wallace was the engineer officer of the 7th and passed his Report and intinerary to Maguire who was the Chief Engineer for the Department of Dakota. There is no mention of Wallace's times or anything alse he wrote in Maguire's own Report, so please do not go any further down this path. Sincerely, Hunk
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Post by herosrest on Jun 12, 2012 7:54:36 GMT -6
The point, Hunk papa, is that Reno was in command and offered the definitive report. An itinery from an officer of 7th Cavalry was published on July 6th 1876, with the New York Herald news story. Benteen arrived at 2pm. Wallace was recalled after McDougall, and followed by Sheridan, then Reno, from p482 of Graham's transcripts. I think that we all, often, forget the words of Gen. Sherman. 'In this engagement the five companies of 7th Cavalry led by Lt. Col. Custer in person, C,E,F,I and L were literally obliterated and the remaining seven companies were saved by the brave and prudent conduct of Major Reno and the timely arrival of General Terry.' The difference in time between 12:30pm and about 2pm is 'the' 85-90 minutes that causes the battle's Time Lord's so much smug authority and immense distress to loads of people who simply want the facts. They do not add up explained by zoning or quantum physics. Simple, plain, facts, of the matter laid bare. Reno stated on July 5th, 1876 - 'As we approached a deserted village, in which was standing one tepee, about 11 am Custer motioned me to cross to him,which I did, and moved nearer to his column, until about 12.30am, when Lt. Cook, adjutant, came to me and said the village was only two miles ahead and running away. To move forward at as rapid gait as I thought prudent and to charge afterwards, and the whole outfit would support me; " I think those were his exact words. I at once took a fast trot, and moved down about two miles, when I came to a ford of the river. Icrossed immediately, and halted about ten minutes or less, to gather the battalion, sending word to Custer that I had everything in front of me, and that they were strong. I deployed, and with the Ree scouts on my left, charged down the valley, driving the Indians with great ease for about 2 miles. Did it therefore take Reno from 11am until the 2:30pm stated by Wallace, to travel from a deserted village to Ford A? The distance is maximum of four generous miles. Maj. Reno's take on events is misleading, which is no suprise. Many who have studied Little Big Horn and authored work, follow chaotic linear approaches. Linear approach can produce rubbish as neat, tidy, succinct results which are easily presented, understood, and accepted This is called spin. Maj. Reno's statement above, is on the face of it a straight forward matter easily extruded to linear progression. In fact, Reno's text is chaotic but no more so than a majority of interpretted tribal accounts of the battle. George Herendeen succinctly reported the same events. (July, 1876): 'Custer had Officer's Call blown, gave his orders, and the command was put in fighting order. The scouts were ordered forward and the regiment moved at a walk. After three miles the scouts reported Indians ahead, and the command took the trail. The way lay down a little creek, a branch of the Little Horn, and after going six miles we discovered an Indian lodge ahead and Custer bore down on it at a stiff trot. In coming to it we found ourselves in a freshly abandoned Indian camp, all the lodges gone except the one seen, which contained a dead Indian. From this point we could see into the Little Big Horn valley, and observed heavy clouds of dust rising five miles distant. We are dealing with early evidence, reports, letters, comment, that 'led' to wide controversy and broad interest in the battle, building blocks of the case against Benteen and Reno made by Whittaker. Reno's telling is jumbled. It does not follow linear progression. His text - 'approached a deserted village' precedes reference to 11 am, but in fact the village was approached after Reno moved nearer Custer's column until about 12.30am. At 12:30am the village was only two miles ahead and running away. At 12:30 Reno was near the village. It is indubitably correct that Reno and Custer's column's were near the village at 12.30pm, on the 25th June. As Lt. Maguire reported on July 10th, 1876, Capt. Benteen was near the village at 2pm, on the 25th. It was suggested during the Reno Inquiry, that Benteen had headed towards the Rosebud. Had he done that, he could not have given testimony in Chicago. W.A. Graham moderated his stupidity with excessive halts of eight and a half hours during the 25th June. Holmes Offley Paulding was told differently, but of course Paulding was there immediately after, and Graham wasn't. According to Benteen, who was sent with a battalion to the left to a line of bluffs about five miles off, with instructions to look for Indians and see what was to be seen, and if seeing nothing to go on. He proceeded through a rough and difficult country seeing nothing, and to save horses unnecessary fatigue, decided to return to the main trail. He had marched rapidly and passed the line of bluffs on the left bank of a branch of the Little Big Horn which made into the main stream about two and a half miles above the ford crossed by Col. Reno's command, and continued in the same direction. The whole time occupied in the march was about an hour and a half. These are, basically Benteen's own words, people find them exceedingly difficult to comprehend, obviously they are not linear in progress - that may be due to obliques. A very important misunderstanding relates to Benteen's instructions from Custer, as Benteen related them. Benteen was simple simon pure in his speech - ask him the time and he told you his time, not Custer's or Reno's. Before he had proceeded a mile in the direction of the bluffs, the Chief Trumpeter and Sgt. Major gave instruction from Gen. Custer to use his discretion and, QUOTE - 'in case l should find any trace of lndians, at once to notify Gen. Custer'. Benteen was saying he was intructed to notify Custer at once if he (Benteen) used discretion. Benteen was anxious to regain the main command as there was no sign of lndians, and rejoined the main trail over country mostly of the same character already passed over, without valley and without water, and offering no inducement for the lndians. No valleys were visible, not even where the fight took place, until his command struck the river. About three miles from the point where Reno crossed the ford, he met a sergeant bringing orders Capt. McDougall. By Herendeen we know that, from the trail Benteen should have been able to see into the Little Big Horn valley. But he was not on Custer's trail when he met a sergeant bringing orders Capt. McDougall. While the command awaited the pack mules, a company sent to Custer were attacked and driven back, and Benteen believed that Custer's immediate command had been annihilated. He doesn't appear to have known that then but did later. "Col. Reno and l thought during the seige of June 25th and 26th, at the Little Big Horn, that he, Reno, was the abandoned party, and spoke of it as another 'Major Elliot Affair', thinking that General Custer had retreated to the mouth of the river, where the steamboat was supposed to be, and that Reno's command was left to its fate" - Benteen "l am accused of disobeying Custer's orders. Nothing could be further from the truth in point of fact and l do not think the matter of sufficient importance to attempt to vindicate mysef but can rest contentedly under the ban when l have the consoling belief that the contrary is so well known by all my military superiors and comrades." - Benteen
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 12, 2012 10:02:15 GMT -6
Your grasp of English at high school level or above is beyond you, but then so is truth or fact.
"Benteen was saying he was intructed to notify Custer at once if he (Benteen) used discretion" is not an accurate summation of even your own presentation and seems to indicate you really do not know what discretion means. Also, where does Benteen use the word 'discretion' in summarizing the messages he received? Where did Custer?
Since you made that up - lied - what is the point?
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Post by herosrest on Jun 12, 2012 12:54:46 GMT -6
Hi Dark Cloud.
I er, didn'y make it up. That's what the Army & Navy Journal printed (and the press) in 1876, It is from Benteen's Narrative . Honest it is - his very own words.
There are people who believe Benteen was ordered to report if he found Indians, did he do that?
It is my view that Custer told him to report if he used his discretion. New Light on the battle ;D
Glad to see and hear that you are doing well.
I didn't make it up. No one could. regards.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 12, 2012 13:01:43 GMT -6
1. Where does Benteen use the word 'discretion' in the RCOI referencing the two messages at issue?
2. Where does Custer instruct Benteen to use discretion? Who says that?
They don't, you made it up, probably because you don't actually know what discretion is.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 12, 2012 13:15:56 GMT -6
Benteen's Narrative was published in the Army & Navy Journal in 1876, it is quoted by Whittaker in his biography of one of the Custer's. Erm...... yup, Benteen's Narrative it says, and the word is spelt, discretion from Benteen's article that he wrote. The early letter's by Reno and Benteen were responses to Rosser, who kicked up a bit of a rumpuss in the press, and the.......... Army & Navy Journal. That was before Whittaker sent editions of his book as Christmas presents to Benteen and Reno. I think Sheridan got one as well, all though Grant had to pay for his. He didn't get re-elected . Whittaker didn't start the troubles, the press did, Finerty for example, and you know how a good story sells. Whittaker just dumped an oilfield into the troubled waters. Galaxy Magazine published Custer's write up of the August 4th 1873 timber fight, and that magazine article, published in the July 1876 Galaxy, was what really started it all off. I posted the entire article as thumbnails quite a while back. Not sure if I put the Army & Navy Benteen pages up? I ain't making it up. Be well.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 12, 2012 14:53:34 GMT -6
1. Where does Benteen use the word 'discretion' in the RCOI referencing the two messages at issue? 2. Where does Custer instruct Benteen to use discretion? Who says that? They don't, you made it up, probably because you don't actually know what discretion is. DC, in a statement to the NY Herald on 8th August 1876, Benteen stated the following concerning the early part of his march to the left: "Before I had proceeded a mile in the direction of the bluffs I was overtaken by the Chief Trumpeter and the Sergeant Major with instructions from General Custer to use my own discretion, and in case I should find any trace of Indians at once to notify General Custer." Whether or not Custer said such a thing is beyond proof as obviously he and the two messengers were killed and could not refute Benteen's claim. Certainly Benteen said no such thing at the RCOI.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 12, 2012 15:43:51 GMT -6
The point, Hunk papa, is that Reno was in command and offered the definitive report. An itinery from an officer of 7th Cavalry was published on July 6th 1876, with the New York Herald news story. Benteen arrived at 2pm. Reno made his own Report based on things from his own point of view. Benteen did the same. Wallace made his Report based on his role as engineering officer. Each Report was separate and singular. None of them, including Reno's was a definitive Report as to qualify as such it would have to be totally objective. After what they had been through, there wasn't a man who could have been totally objective. Now, as to the times Reno cites in his Report, has it not occurred to you that his watch could well have been set to a different time zone to that of Wallace? Each time he mentions is roughly two hours earlier than Wallace. For example, he says that after the separation at the divide, he did not see Benteen again until 2.30 p.m., which could only have been when Benteen joined him on Reno Hill. Godfrey says that Benteen arrived there at 4.20 p.m. which is near enouh two hours difference. You should do more research, more cross-referencing and more careful consideration before posting what you believe are 'revelations' about various so-called discrepancies in either timings or evidence that in fact, are little more than your own misreadings of matters which have reasonable explanations. Lastly, will you get your head around the fact that Benteen did not reach the village at 2.00 p.m. By his own testimony he received the 'Come on' message via Martini at 3.00 p.m. and he had not reached the village at that point. The closest he got was at 4.20 p.m. when he reached Reno on the hill. You constantly misunderstand that reference to 2.00 p.m. and you will continue to waste your time and ours by persisting in misconstruing its meaning. Dincerely, Hunk
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