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Post by elkslayer on May 6, 2012 22:48:26 GMT -6
Going to be in that neck of the woods next week and was wondering if Wounded Knee is worth a visit.
Jim
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Post by fred on May 7, 2012 10:40:32 GMT -6
... was wondering if Wounded Knee is worth a visit. Jim, It is always worth a visit there, if for no other reason than just to say you were. There is a cemetery there and a horrendous, tepee-shaped souvenir shop, loaded with anti-Custer sayings. It is a poor, ravished, soulful, haunting area. And a monument to American insecurity and paranoia. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on May 7, 2012 12:06:51 GMT -6
... was wondering if Wounded Knee is worth a visit. Jim, It is always worth a visit there, if for no other reason than just to say you were. There is a cemetery there and a horrendous, tepee-shaped souvenir shop, loaded with anti-Custer sayings. It is a poor, ravished, soulful, haunting area. And a monument to American insecurity and paranoia. Best wishes, Fred. And what do they have against Custer? He wasn't even there and long dead by then. They defeated him in 76. Any degrading of Custer just down grades their victory. It makes no sense to me. The major NA defeat came in 77 and that was Terry and others. If the NAs have a bone to pick, it should be against Sheridan and Sherman's march through the west among others. bc
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 7, 2012 13:25:20 GMT -6
Come on. That's easy for us to say.
By the end of the Revolution we found acceptable hatred for George III and focused all hatred on him, personally. We hated Tojo even after he was removed from office, and look how OBL and Saddam remained the faces of recent enemies when they were on a first name basis with sand fleas. Ho Chi Min to this day is the face of evil north Vietnam, is he not among vets? How long has he been gone?
That Custer serves this for the Indians is fine, and it should not come as a shock. Whites look alike to Indians, they say. Custer serves to represent all the others.
Does degrading Hitler downgrade our victory? Santa Anna? Whether we like it or not, Custer is one of the guys who killed their women and children and raped and kept their women. I realize they did as well, but we don't hold the grudges once held in, say, Kansas from Civil War issues that many still hold today from WWII because of the racial aspects. Raped by enemy whites is one thing. Enemy orientals? Apparently, different.
It's ugly stuff and nobody looks good, but finding Wounded Knee offensive (it is...but you understand the bitterness just peering around at.......nothing) and not the other stuff is sorta hypocritical, and we're all guilty of it to different degrees.
Korea and China and Vietnam vie with one another for the nation that hates Japan most, although the Philippines are gaining ground. Similar stuff.
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walsh
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Post by walsh on May 7, 2012 22:07:58 GMT -6
The Natives were fortunate they were not exterminated. All we were asking was for them to live like civilized people and most refused. I think Social Darwinism is a wonderful thing. Civilization has advanced and we have gotten rid of the savage tribal way of life in the western world(although its coming back because of immigration). The Wounded Knee Massacre was the frustration of the white man to rid himself of an inferior culture.
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tatanka
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Live for today like there was no tomorrow
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Post by tatanka on Jun 22, 2012 11:39:27 GMT -6
So the "Natives" refused to live like civilised people? What an arrogant statement, typical of those who committed the atrocity at Wounded Knee. The Indians had their own civilisation, thousands of years old, which served their every need. To say their culture was inferior is as arrogant as the first statement. Inferior to whom? The white mans' culture which agreed with the attempted extermination of an entire race and promoted the murder and mutilation of women and children?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 22, 2012 12:22:20 GMT -6
1. "So the "Natives" refused to live like civilised people? What an arrogant statement, typical of those who committed the atrocity at Wounded Knee." Arrogance is more easily found among Europeans who condemn American actions everywhere, although those actions reduced the need for arms among their own. Even so, they wimped out again when Yugoslavia - again - went to hell and relied upon American power so they could damn us for civilian casualties while quivering at our ankles. Without Blair, there'd still be a horrid war in the Balkans, which Europe, as a whole, did nothing whatever to stop.
The aborigines were not civilized in that they operated on the street gang, patriarchal model of male whim. There was no law, although there were acts of compassion. There were many different civilizations, not one, that varied immensely. The Aztec had little in common with the Eskimo or the Iroquois, or the Ute.
The so called civilized people were not much better on the frontier, but the facts are that what good has come to native Americans of late (contracts, discovery that federal treaty is law) is through the structure brought by western European law and attendant religions. If we treated them as they treated each other, we would have enslaved the desirable women, kidnapped the kids, killed the men. In any case, what is known about their history comes from white interest and record keeping, not their own, which in most cases was due to the fact they could not write. The accuracy of oral history is a joke, everywhere, every people.
2. "The Indians had their own civilisation, thousands of years old, which served their every need."
Well, no. Just keeping to the plains Indians, they had the horse in bulk 150 years -ish, had firearms far less time, and that changed them immensely. Even with that, they could not unite, could not imagine what was happening till too late. The facts are that they hated each other more than the whites, whom they dreamed of using to kill their enemies. That was pretty much it.
Oh, and ask the Sioux or any tribe what was happening thousands of years back among their people. They have no clue. Nobody does. What have you got for us since you claim they were civilized for thousands of years?
The pandemics would have happened if a ship of female traders carrying the bug was blown across the Atlantic rather than Columbus and the Vikings. If the Chinese made it, as I suspect, they could have brought the plague centuries before it arrived. Just the luck of the draw, not evil intent. The Europeans - at least the Catholics - really wanted to save souls as well as steal the gold.
3. "To say their culture was inferior is as arrogant as the first statement. Inferior to whom? The white mans' culture which agreed with the attempted extermination of an entire race and promoted the murder and mutilation of women and children?"
Actually, there was affection and regard for the aborigines from the beginning in white culture, starting with the Spaniard's search for Eden and the Lost Tribes of Israel myth and Prester John tales. Ben Franklin and many others wondered why so many ran away to join the tribes, a big issue through the Revolution and after.
Their culture was inferior because it could not sustain itself against predictable change nor could it adapt to meet the need. The warrior cultures always lose, and the tribes were little more than that. Metacom, Osceola, and Tecumseh had some foresight and were ignored or abandoned.
And, as said, they had no regard for the history or culture of themselves or others. They just pretended things were as they ever were when they most certainly were not. The Sioux pushed the Crow out of the Black Hills, there was nothing 'forever' about it, although they still lie about this. The Sioux were a forest tribe into the white era, but quickly forgot that when the horse came.
The Indians did not maintain loving regard for each other's culture variants. They did not have, as the various armies had, religious enthusiasts screaming 'it's wrong' or contending political parties using the issues for prominence. These were top down cultures of war chiefs, for the most part. Like everyone, everywhere till change was mandated.
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walsh
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Post by walsh on Jun 22, 2012 16:15:41 GMT -6
It basically comes down to Hunter-Gatherer societies vs Agriculture/Farming societies. Agriculture/Farming wins every time. Hunter/Gatherer is for primitive people. In fairness, all humans at some point were Hunter Gatherer's before evolving. The Sioux were primitive. We tried to introduce them to the modern way but they were not receptive because of tradition.
You still see a lot of this Hunter Gatherer stuff in Africa which is scary considering it's 2012.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 22, 2012 16:58:23 GMT -6
You carry this further than I do. Hunter/gatherer is an apt description of urban street gang, or Somali pirates, or rural Michigan militia in that they don't produce anything, or any Army, just obtain and hoard it. Farming and agriculture is the same thing, not needing a slash, and in any case many Indians were farmers, as so many were and are in Africa. They refined what is now called corn/maize so much that it could not grow in the wild when the white men discovered it. That's pretty refined agriculture.
(The expression "As American as apple pie!" needs some explanation, given nothing including wheat, dairy, sugar, cinnamon or apples is native to the western hemisphere. Virtually all Asian and European supposedly 'native' dishes are dependent upon peppers and spices from over here. Think tomato and potato alone.)
So, I disagree with you. Further, nobody gave up hunting when they got a farm. They domesticated animals. There were no dairy animals over here, and until the pandemics Europeans brought, not many bison, which like the Passenger Pigeon only reached their famous population levels when the Indians were decimated by disease before many whites knew they were there.
"The Natives were fortunate they were not exterminated." That's true. Could have easily been done. Early on, could have been said about the whites. The aborigines could not unite, is all. Numerous male vanities.
"All we were asking was for them to live like civilized people and most refused." No. All we were asking was all their land, game, production of darling deerskin clothing and jewelry to sell to us cheap, and for them to push-pull, click-click become Lutherans and not ride over our hunting preserve. It took centuries for Europeans to do this. Native Americans went from stone age to space age in a century and now are doing pretty well, with exceptions. That's better and faster than Europeans did. At their rate of adaptation, if it continues, they'll be on top above everyone. Won't you love that.
"I think Social Darwinism is a wonderful thing. Civilization has advanced and we have gotten rid of the savage tribal way of life in the western world(although its coming back because of immigration). The Wounded Knee Massacre was the frustration of the white man to rid himself of an inferior culture."
Okay, now you crossed over into ignorant bigotry. Immigration isn't bringing it back, and in fact violent crime rates in our nation are going down. Mexico can't say the same because of all the American white kids (the ones with the cash) buying drugs for the last half century. It's hard to say the Church is anything more than a giant crime syndicate of gay pedophiles and rapists at this point - civilized?
Slavery isn't back, it's just being rediscovered having gone underground for a century, albeit these days it has to do with the sexual needs of all us civilized white guys. Shocker, that.
Social Darwinism is wonderful when you're born part of the ruling clique. The assumption is that it's Nature's Way when it can be punctuated evolution or just blind chance, although they are often the same thing. The Cherokee adapted quickly due to some remarkable members, far quicker than the Scots and Irish and many other conquered folk, and while they were treated like dung by those immediately about and shipped off, they shamed near all of our civilization and this was said at the time and since.
You flatter the terrified soldiers at Wounded Knee with such elevated thought. They were avenging Custer and their frozen gonads so they could go home.
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walsh
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Post by walsh on Jun 22, 2012 18:02:45 GMT -6
Wait so your blaming Mexico's problems on the drug war? I happen to agree with you on that but it's not like Mexico was much of anything before Nixon started the war on drugs. Ask yourself how socialism works so well in Sweden but doesn't in Venezuela. Is socialism the problem or is it the people that occupy the countries? The reality is that certain cultures/people are superior over others.
Muslims figuratively bring slavery to this country with their treatment of women. Ever hear of stoning your daughter to death for dishonoring the family? Coming to a neighborhood near you.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 22, 2012 19:16:02 GMT -6
People have been treating their daughters like crap for millennia, and they kill infant girls all over the world because they're an expense, perhaps a curse. It's easy to pretend to morality when evil occurs in Islam, somewhat more difficult when renegade Mormons do it here. For a century and a half and more. Even the feds feared, till recently, going after people with money and influence.
How many young pregnant girls - who would have disgraced the family for being raped by family friends - died of "disease" or God's hand in rural homes unseen by authority before burial through the years? Christian homes, I mean? Here.
The Catholic Church's horrors aren't coming here, they've been here as part of western civilization for centuries and few had nerve to take them on, again, till recently. Of the goober Protestant horrors of the same quality, they're just social climbers in comparison, but just as evil.
It's easy to be above prostitution because you can say some choose it, and some are putting themselves through medical/law/nuclear physics degrees by doing it, and a few have. But after 10k years of information, we know for a fact that prostitution is generally a career forced upon kids, and they have no say or knowledge of alternatives or ways to obtain those alternatives, and after a few years it may be all they're good for.
The drug problems in the US are generally due to white drug addicts and imbibers, not the ethnic horrors presented, because they have the money. This doesn't get the coverage because people can hide bigotry and stupidity under titles that are not true.
There weren't really any welfare queens, either, but those that came close were white and native.
Hindus threw widows on the cremation pyres of husbands, and some still do, but we don't see Americans fearful of that happening here despite the increasing number of Hindu immigrants. The vast majority of Hindu and Muslims are here to get away from all that. The retarded Christian elders are no different than the clay eating Appalachian Christians wanting to burn things and people as well, preferably African Americans or someone of color. Long history of that.
It's the same goober, male, patriarchal nonsense that's arisen, again, of late. Third rate white males who are poorly educated, not all that hard working, and now morbidly obese suddenly realizing that those with better educations (not necessarily better grades) who work harder will slide up the social pole as they slide down. That isn't fair! In general, yes it is. Already colleges are heavily recruiting overseas because they're aren't enough educated American children worthy of college. The ones that are tend to be female. Argh! Unfair!
And women are starting to earn so much more and......they're worth in comparison! Arhhhhhhhhhhhghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!
You're for the fantasy of Social Darwinism if the effort and risk was made by ancestors in coming to America. Then, just by being born American, no need to excel or compete. You're superior. It's not the immigrants that warp America, it's the sense of cultural entitlement of those already here and not worthy. Who are mostly white.
And male.
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walsh
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Post by walsh on Jun 24, 2012 11:13:57 GMT -6
Is affirmative action fair when Whites and Asians are discriminated against in the name of diversity?
This country was built by White people but we are bending over and taking it from liberal politicians with white guilt syndrome. You must be a self hating white guy who cant wait for whites to become a tiny minority in about 100-200 years. 2042 is now the magic year when we are officially projected to be a minority. What will it be in 2,142? Ah who cares? None of us will be around then anyway right?
Violent crime is going down? Have you seen Chicago this year? Oh wait, you probably live in a white area of Colorado and don't have to deal with that kind of stuff.
Boulder, Colorado 88.2% white 1.2% black. You are clueless.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 24, 2012 11:31:43 GMT -6
Hardly clueless. Lived and educated in the south and I'm from the north and currently reside in the west. Sorry you've lost out to better educated, and better, people who work harder, and that you're not as good as your ancestors, if true. Must embarrass the wife and kids. Wait! Go out and have a picture taken of yourself with a gun! That always makes it better.
You must know something the FBI does not, since they provide the stats. Entertain the possibility you're just an inferior person to those doing better than you. We all should.
Whatever the goals of the Founders were, it was not to make a nation where third rate white schlubs would be safe from self knowledge or need to improve, benefit from the work and inventions of others, and conclude they're of the same caliber because of skin color and so due deference.
Such nations don't last long, if nothing else.
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walsh
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Post by walsh on Jun 24, 2012 11:40:35 GMT -6
If someone gets into medical school over me because the College has filled it's White Quota, that's fair? This happens all the time to Whites and Asians. You probably support these racist policies.
There is no need to look up FBI crime statistics. 49 shootings on St. Patrick's Day in Chicago. That was all over the news.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 24, 2012 13:56:51 GMT -6
Right. You applied to med school, walsh? And now you include the Orientals with the whites, since the whites, especially white men, do so poorly these days in grad schools? I think those who pose as medical school hopefuls who were accepted nowhere - nowhere? - should have their grades posted so they can be laughed at. Along with alleged best friends named Chong or Tanaka who also didn't get accepted, apparently because Harvard and Johns Hopkins were recruiting Rastafarian drug lords and stoners as med students who'd flunk out which would do so much for alumni support.
They're all smarter than you, Walsh. Women hold the most jobs in this nation because they do better in school. The old standby of taking the white guy in a near 50-50 call started going the other way. Overdue and tough for us. More women in med and law, too. And so many not American because we don't have enough qualified applicants.
I'm for getting the best students the best education and best opportunities to excel. You think whites are genetically better? There's nothing to that whatever.
There are people who thought women dumb in math. Right. When I was growing up, I was taught women had different elbows than men and that's why they couldn't throw a baseball correctly. Nothing to do, apparently, with men working their biceps more. Real brains back then. Giants among us.
If we'd included in our educational system the women and minorities within reach, the United States would be so far ahead the Soviets would have given up by 1950 instead of beating us to the punch a few times.
So, what percentage of thousands of Catholic priests guilty of pedophilia and rape are white? Conclusive proof - as sure as cherry picked Chicago crime stats - that white males with European and primarily Irish last names are pedophiles. Christianity should be limited to Jews, like Christ. Obviously.
The national statistics on violent crime have nosedived over the last few years. If Chicago is up this year, that's all it means if the nation's violence is down. A girl, or someone smart enough to get into med school would know that.
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