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Post by wild on May 5, 2012 13:44:06 GMT -6
In modern combat a section has the fire power to make a difference. On the civil war battlefields anything below brigade was insignificant. So leadership began at brigade level.Below brigadier rank, officers were no more than markers. If fire power is the criteria then Custer was never more than a captain.And his subordinate officers at the LBH would have had less tactical knowledge than a modern day corporal. The defence of Reno hill speaks volumns of their tactical innocence. 400 Carbines and they lose the fire fight.
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Post by benteen on May 5, 2012 14:09:37 GMT -6
The defence of Reno hill speaks volumns of their tactical innocence. 400 Carbines and they lose the fire fight. Richard, They werent trying to win anything, victory was out of the question.All they were trying to do was survive.They accomplished that, and did it in a fine military fashion. They set up afield hospital for the wounded, brave men like Peter Thompson (No I dont believe his story) got water for their wounded comrades at the risk of their lives, men were moved by the Officers to where they were needed most , they attacked when needed. No Richard I have to diagree with you on this point, I beleive they handled themselves admirably. Be Well Dan.
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Post by wild on May 5, 2012 15:25:50 GMT -6
Dan They werent trying to win anything How right you are. Apoligies if I'm cherry picking . Best wishes
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Post by quincannon on May 5, 2012 15:56:35 GMT -6
Richard: "If firepower is the criteria". Firepower is meaningless, totally worthless, and expendature of the taxpayers money to no avail. That is why your statement is in error. All units have meaning regardless of size. All leadership is significant regardless of the command level of that leadership. Officers are not markers. They are leaders. Now this is a direct rebuff of your statement above based upon this firepower nonsense. Were firepower the dominent factor on the battlefield there is a good probability what you have said would be absolutely true.
The dominent factor on the battlefield is firepower and maneuver. One is useless without the other. In both you need officer leadership. Now if you wish to modify the statement by saying that firepower is less leadership intensive than maneuver you would be correct. But if you cling to this I want to see you move a division, a brigade, a regiment, a battalion, or a company, without officer leadership, good officer leadership at every level. There are no markers on the battlefield. There are leaders on the battlefield that function at their prescribed level.
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Post by wild on May 5, 2012 16:11:49 GMT -6
I might reconsider but I'v touched on something here re Custer's experience. The brigade was the basic maneuver unit.A block of potential force to be delivered on a regimented formal field of battle.Totally different to what happened at the LBH. There is and I'm sure you are aware of it the" Peter Principle".A principle which states that a person can be promoted to the level at which he is incompetent. Custer may have been demoted to the level at which he was incompetent. Regards
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Post by quincannon on May 5, 2012 16:29:10 GMT -6
Yes Richard I am aware of the Peter Principle. I reached that level when I made PFC, but it never stopped those promotion boards from making unwise selections.
The brigade was the basic maneuver unit in the ACW. It did not start out to be that way. It was first the regiment. The reason "basic" was elevated to a higher echelon was due to casualties on and off the battlefield and the largely non existent replacement system, to where regiments became units of very low strength. I have heard some regiments down as low as fifty people. Now when that happens you find yourself grouping more and more regiments together to attain the required firepower. In the ACW this was a problem of the system being broken or nonexistent more than anything else
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Post by elkslayer on May 6, 2012 22:28:47 GMT -6
He was to arrogant to share his plans or ideas to fight the indians with his officers.
Not so sure on that one... Before the Inquiry, Reno stated that Custer passed him on the bluff and was on the way to attack the village flank. So, although Custer never told him, he knew. And except for Washita, I don't remember Custer ever coming up with a plan before a battle and then sticking to it. He was more of a fluid commander...he reacted to opportunities on the battlefield when they were presented.
Jim
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 8, 2012 7:03:07 GMT -6
Before the Inquiry, Reno stated that Custer passed him on the bluff and was on the way to attack the village flank.
Are you refering to his assessment after the battle? That's not any help in real time. Does Reno state he saw Custer when he was in the valley?
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Post by elkslayer on May 8, 2012 21:12:53 GMT -6
AZ Ranger, I am sure I read that in at least two books that Reno said he saw him on the bluff, which was later changed during the inquiry. Of course, as we know, just because I saw it in print twice, does NOT mean it is true. Quickly realizing that there are lots of "facts" floating around.
Jim
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Carl
Full Member
Posts: 125
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Post by Carl on May 13, 2012 11:09:36 GMT -6
Charges and Specifications preferred against Brevet Major General G. A. Custer, Lieutenant Colonel
7th U.S. Cavalry Charge first. Absence without leave from his command. Specification first. In this, that he Brevet Major General G.A . Custer, Lieutenant Colonel 7th U.S. Cavalry, did at or near
Fort Wallace, Kansas, on or about the 15th day of July 1867, absent himself from his command
without proper authority, and proceed to Fort Harker, Kansas, a distance of about 275 miles, this at a
time when his command was expected to be actively engaged against hostile Indians. Charge second. Conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline. Specification first. In this, that he, Brevet Major General G.A. Custer, Lieutenant Colonel 7th U.S. Cavalry, immediately
after the troops of his command had completed a long and exhausting march, and when the horses
belonging thereto had not been rested, and were in an unfit condition for said service, did select a
portion of such command consisting of three Commissioned officers, and about seventy-five men with
their horses, and did set out upon and execute a rapid march from Fort Wallace, Kansas, to Fort Hays
in the same state; the said march being on private business, and without proper authority or any
urgency or demand of public business; and in so doing did seriously prejudice the public interest by
overmarching and damaging the horses belonging to the said detachment of his command. Specification second. In this, that he, Brevet Major General G.A . Custer, Lieutenant Colonel 7th U.S. Cavalry, while
executing an unauthorized journey on private business from Fort Wallace, Kansas to Fort Harker in
the same state, did procure at Fort Hays in the same state, on or about the 17th July 1867, (two
ambulances and) four mules belonging to the United States, and did use such (ambulances and) mules,
for the conveyance of himself and part of his escort from said Fort Hays to Fort Harker in the
aforesaid state. Specification third. In this, that he Brevet Major General G.A. Custer, Lieutenant Colonel 7th U.S. Cavalry, when near
Downer's Station in the state of Kansas, on or about the 16th day of July 1867, after having received
information that a party of Indians had attacked a small party detached from his escort near said
Station, did fail to take proper measures for the repulse of said Indians, or the defense or relief of said
detachment; and further, after the return of such detached party of his command with report that two
of their number had been killed, did neglect to take any measures to pursue such party of Indians, or
recover or bury the bodies of his command that had been killed as aforesaid. Additional Charges and Specifications preferred against Lieutenant Colonel George A. Custer, Brevet
Major General U.S.A. Charge Conduct prejudicial to good order and Military discipline. Specification first. In this that Brevet Major General G.A. Custer, Lieutenant Colonel 7th U.S. Cavalry, while en route
commanding and marching a column of his regiment, six companies or thereabouts, strong, from the
valley of the Platte River, to the valley of the Smoky Hill River, did, when ordering a party of three
commissioned Officers and others of his Command in pursuit of supposed deserters who were then in
view leaving camp, also order the said party to shoot the supposed deserters down dead, and bring
none in alive. This on "Custer' Cavalry Column Trail," while traveling southward, about fifty miles southwest from
Fort Sedgewick, Colorado, on or about the seventh day of July, 1867. Specification second. In this that Brevet Major General G.A. Custer, Lieutenant Colonel 7th U.S. Cavalry, did order (the
following named and designated Soldiers of his regiment, viz. Bugler Barney Tolliver, Company K.,
Private Charles Johnson, Company K., Private Alburger, Company D., and other) enlisted men of his
command, to be shot down as supposed deserters, but without trial; and did thus cause three men to be
severely wounded. This on "Custer's Cavalry Column Trail," while traveling southward, between fifteen and forty miles
South of Platt River, between fifty and seventy miles Southwest from Fort Sedgewick, Colorado, on or
about the seventh day of July, 1867. Specification third. In this that Brevet Major General G.A . Custer, Lieutenant Colonel 7th U.S. Cavalry, after the
following named and designated soldiers of his regiment, viz. Bugler Barney Tolliver, Company K.,
Private Charles Johnson, Company K., and Private Alburger, Company D., had been summarily shot
down and severely wounded by order of him the said Custer, did, order and cause the said soldiers to
be placed in a government wagon, and to be hauled eighteen miles, (and did then and there neglect and
positively and persistently refuse to allow the said soldiers, to receive treatment and attention from
the Acting Assistant Surgeon with his command or any other Medical or Surgical attendance
whatsoever). This on "Custer's Cavalry Column Trail," while traveling southward, between fifteen and forty miles
south of Platt River, between fifty and seventy miles Southwest from Fort Sedgewick, Colorado, on or
about the seventh day of July, 1867. Specification fourth. In this that Brevet Major General G.A. Custer, Lieutenant Colonel 7th U.S. Cavalry, while
commanding and marching a column of his regiment, six companies or thereabouts strong, did, on or
about the seventh day of July 1867, at a point about fifteen miles South of Platt River, and about fifty
miles southwest from Fort Sedgewick, Colorado, order and cause the summary shooting, as a
supposed deserter, but without trial, of one Private Charles Johnson, Company K., 7th U.S. Infantry
[sic], a soldier of his command; whereby he, the said Johnson, was so severely wounded that he soon
after - to wit, on or about the 17th day of July 1867, at or near Fort Wallace, Kansas - did decease; he
the said Custer thus causing the death of the said Johnson. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Findings Of the 1st Specification 1st Charge - Guilty of the Specification, substituting the words "Fort Harker,"
for the words "Fort Riley," and the figures "200" for the figures "275." Of the 1st Charge - Guilty. Of the 1st Specification of the 2nd Charge - Guilty. Of the 2nd Specification of the 2nd Charge - Guilty of the Specification, substituting the words "Ft.
Harker" for the words "Ft. Riley;" omitting the words "two ambulances and," and substituting the
word "four" for the word "eight," and omitting the words "ambulances and," and attach no criminality
thereto. Of the 3rd Specification of the 2nd Charge - Guilty. Of the 2nd Charge - Guilty. Of the 1st Specification of the Additional Charge - Guilty. Of the 2nd Specification of the Additional Charge - Guilty of the Specification omitting the words
"the following named and designated soldiers of his Regiment, viz Bugler Barney Tolliver, Co.K,
Private Charles Johnson, Co K, Private Alburger, Co. D. and other," and substituting the words "three"
in place of the words "the said." Of the third Specification of the Additional Charge the Court finds the facts as stated in the
specification except the words "and did then and there neglect and positively and persistantly refuse to
allow the said soldiers to receive any treatment or attention from the acting assistant Surgeon with his
command, or any other medical or surgical attendance whatever," and attach no criminality thereto. Of the forth Specification of the Additional Charge - Guilty. Of the Additional Charge - Guilty. In consequence the Court sentenced Brevet Major General G.A. Custer, Lieutenant Colonel, 7th U.S.
Cavalry, to be suspended from rank and command for one year, and forfeit his pay for the same time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Members of the Court Brevet Major General William Hoffman, Colonel Third U.S. Infantry Brevet Major General John W. Davidson, Lieutenant Colonel Tenth U.S. Calvary (excused) Brevet Major General Benjamin H. Grierson, Colonel Tenth U.S. Calvary Brevet Brigadier General Pitcairn Morrison, Colonel U.S. Army Retired Brevet Brigadier General Michael R. Morgan, Major Commissary of Subsistence Brevet Brigadier General Franklin D. Callender, Lieutenant Colonel Ordnance Department Brevet Lieutenant Colonel Thomas C. English, Major Fifth U.S. Infantry Brevet Major Henry Asbury, Captain, Ordnance Department Brevet Major Stephen C. Lyford, Captain Ordnance Department Brevet Lieutenant Colonel Robert Chandler, Captain Thirteenth U.S. Infantry, Judge Advocate
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Post by ulan on May 14, 2012 10:41:09 GMT -6
It seems like Custer brought his men and horses many times to the very limits of the possible.
That was one of his mistakes also on the LBH battle. We see by many accounts of exhausted horses that he did not learn how to keep his material in fighting condition. It is like a commander of a tank unit in ww2 who pushes his tanks to hunting enemy untill he running out of fuel and then go into the battle with tanks unable to move.
His moves are controled by his hot temper and his head workes not cool like it should do for a general.
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Post by ulan on May 19, 2012 2:29:57 GMT -6
What if Custer had known of the battle of the Rosebud. Would that change his mind and lead him to move his troops more carefully to the indians?
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Post by fred on May 19, 2012 5:31:46 GMT -6
What if Custer had known of the battle of the Rosebud. Would that change his mind and lead him to move his troops more carefully to the indians? Interesting question. I do not know, but my guess would be, No. I think he would have merely laughed at Crook's failure. Remember, Custer misread the signs going up the Rosebud valley. If he misread them in the Rosebud, he misread them in the Reno Creek valley as well. And by the time he reached the LBH valley, many more Indians had joined the camp from the south, going down the LBH valley, signs Custer would not have seen. So even if he read the signs in the Rosebud correctly, he would still have underestimated the Indians' strength. A lady poster named "Helford" brought up some very, very good work on just this subject not too long ago. You should be able to find it here very easily. "Helford" is extremely good. "Brenda," as well, if you can find her work. Great stuff! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on May 19, 2012 7:56:30 GMT -6
If you do not tell your subordinates what the plan is they will have no idea if it is going wrong.Thus no bitching. This non communication with his subordinates would be a factor in Fred's scenario ie the jaunt to look for a Nothern ford while leaving Keogh to cover his rear.Can you just imagine the bitching if he explained that maneuver to his officers? Keeping the buggers in the dark you give no hostages to fortune.Look what Custer's I'll support you with the whole outfit"did not only for his own image but future LBH discussion boards.
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Post by ulan on May 19, 2012 8:40:54 GMT -6
I think in Custers understanding of his own orders he did support Reno with the whole outfit. He send Benteen with the packs to Reno and attacked the camp from another side to take the pressure away from Reno.
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