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Post by drahmann on Dec 30, 2011 5:31:01 GMT -6
Diane, Thanks for the information. I ordered the book. I look forward to getting it. ANY new information is good information. Happy New Years to you and yours! Joe
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Post by bc on Dec 30, 2011 10:16:01 GMT -6
Every time I go there it gives me this:
Out of Print--Limited Availability.
And there is no book or price listed.
bc
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Post by drahmann on Dec 30, 2011 11:03:40 GMT -6
I saw that too but there was another site (abe books) that had it and I ordered it.
Joe
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Post by drahmann on Dec 30, 2011 12:43:30 GMT -6
Fred, For whatever reason, I cannot find a Heitman's Register. I was wondering if you see ANY reference for my Dr. Arad Harvey Mann? I do know that he was appointed Surgeon at the end of the Civil War. Do you see a reference for him at that time or at all after the Civil War?
Thanks, Joe
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Post by benteen on Dec 30, 2011 13:42:42 GMT -6
drahmann,
Joe, Capt Fred mentioned Joe Kelly (Bandbox Troop). He had a relative killed at the LBH and I believe other relations that served during the Civil War. He is very adept at finding this kind of info through pension records. ancestry web sites etc. He is a gentleman and I'm sure would be willing to point you to different vehicles for your search
Be Well Dan
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Post by fred on Dec 30, 2011 18:37:19 GMT -6
Joe,
I have done some checking around here and this is what I have found.
First of all, the Heitman Register is organized in three sections. I have section 1, but only beginning on page 149. It is the alphabetical listing of all officer who served in the U. S. Army from its organization, 29Sep1789, to 2Mar1903. If Mann were an officer, he would show up in that register.
Now... for your information and for the information of others. I am not a researcher of this stuff. I have never done any first-hand research on this battle, other than to walk the field. As far as I am concerned, all the pertinent information has already been found-- by others-- and anything left out there to be discovered is either incidental or immaterial. There is nothing out there-- in my opinion-- that will tell us anything materially different than what has already been discovered.
What I do, I refer to as a "synthesis." I do not have the patience, the time, or the wherewithal to be delving into archives and such, and I am lazy enough to let someone else do it for me, then I will compile all the stuff that pertains to whatever I am interested in. And, in my own way, I analyze. The value in what I do-- I believe-- is that I can give you a great deal of data that you would have to get from a myriad number of sources. And as I said, I analyze, using my own experience, my own education, and what I pick up from others. I sift, I sort, I compile, I meld, I accept, I discard... I synthesize the works of others. That's why I am so damn dangerous when it comes to this stuff.
The Heitman stuff is a good example... I got whatever I have from Billy Markland. Markland is the very best researcher of American military "stuff" from the old West... in the world! Nobody is better than Billy.
Billy probably has access to the Heitman volume on assistant surgeons. He haunts these boards... he'll see this post. And hopefully, he will be able to dig something up on your ancestor.
He is also very deep in debt to me in the way of beer buying. He owes me big time!! I mean, we're talking mortgage-type big time in beer. And eventually, I will wring it from him.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by stevewilk on Dec 30, 2011 23:52:54 GMT -6
Roger Darling's book Custer's Seventh Cavalry Comes to Dakota cites Dr. Mann three times; unfortunately nothing of much detail. Mentions him as one of four surgeons along with Drs. Kimball, Racher and Harvey as being with the regiment upon arrival at Yankton. When the regiment left Yankton, Dr. Mann was detailed to accompany some twenty enlisted men unable to make the march aboard a steamer (name of vessel not mentioned) to Ft. Rice. Later it mentions Custer reassigning Dr. Mann to Grand River Agency; Dr. James Kimball was chief surgeon on the Yellowstone Expedition. There may be more on Dr. Mann in Lawrence Frost's book Custer's 7th Cavalry and the Campaign of 1873. Don't have this one; it is long out of print and you'll pay a couple hundred for a used copy. Mr. Cutler's bio sketch of Dr. Mann that you cited is full of errors. For starters how could Dr. Mann be posed to Ft. Fetterman in Oct of 1866? There WAS no Ft. Fetterman until July 1867. Capt. Fetterman himself did not even arrive at Ft. Phil Kearny till Nov. of 1866. There are other errors as well. Incidently, Darling refers to Dr. Mann as "Assistant Surgeon" which would indicate regular army doctor. Yet no listing in Heitmans. BTW contract surgeons apparently did rather well for themselves; they could earn up to fifty pct. more pay than a civilian doctor in the city. Per the US Army's Medical Dept. website; which states the average annual income of civilian doctor was around $1,000. An army contract surgeon could make from $1,200 to $1,500 per year. So the risk had its rewards. BTW Joe you can order Heitmans online at www.researchonline.net/catalog/heitman.htm
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Post by drahmann on Dec 31, 2011 8:38:11 GMT -6
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Post by drahmann on Dec 31, 2011 8:41:20 GMT -6
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Post by fred on Dec 31, 2011 8:57:46 GMT -6
Fred, If I gave the wrong impression, I truly and deeply apologize. I was not wanting for you to do research for me. I thought that you had a copy of the Heitman Register and that it would be easy for you to just look and see if Dr. Mann's name appeared. Joe, That's the damn problem with this impersonal way of communicating... I did not mean to imply I was doing the research "for you." Not at all! It is a pleasure for me to try to help. I put that up there just to let you know that some of the things I post here are not developed from primary sources, that's all. I do not have the time, energy, or wherewithal to do this myself. If I cannot find it in a book, I ask others to provide it. That's why I like Billy Markland's work so much. I have never done the "archival" work... I make no bones about that; I hide nothing here. Like I said, everything I do is a synthesis of work done by others, and that includes people like Markland and Steve Wilk. So again, Joe... this is not a problem or a burden. Please take what I say here as fun. It is fully meant that way. Happy New Year. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Dec 31, 2011 9:03:40 GMT -6
Incidently, Darling refers to Dr. Mann as "Assistant Surgeon" which would indicate regular army doctor. Yet no listing in Heitmans. Steve, I think this may be sloppiness, or simply a misunderstanding. It appears contract surgeons were titled, " Acting Assistant Surgeon," whereas a fellow like Lord was titled, "Assistant Surgeon." The "Acting" part may have merely been elided for convenience, brevity, or whatever. I have downloaded the entire 1,000+-page volume one of Heitman's and there is absolutely no mention of Mann. I will have to dig around for volumes 2 and 3, but I think they may just be superfluous. Best wishes, Fred. PS-- By the way, Billy sent me the alphabetical Heitman stuff, but I downloaded the entire first volume from this site: www.archive.org/details/historicalregis03heitgoogFCW
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jag
Full Member
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Post by jag on Dec 31, 2011 12:06:52 GMT -6
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Post by stevewilk on Dec 31, 2011 21:36:01 GMT -6
Incidently, Darling refers to Dr. Mann as "Assistant Surgeon" which would indicate regular army doctor. Yet no listing in Heitmans. Steve, I think this may be sloppiness, or simply a misunderstanding. It appears contract surgeons were titled, " Acting Assistant Surgeon," whereas a fellow like Lord was titled, "Assistant Surgeon." The "Acting" part may have merely been elided for convenience, brevity, or whatever. I have downloaded the entire 1,000+-page volume one of Heitman's and there is absolutely no mention of Mann. I will have to dig around for volumes 2 and 3, but I think they may just be superfluous. Best wishes, Fred. PS-- By the way, Billy sent me the alphabetical Heitman stuff, but I downloaded the entire first volume from this site: www.archive.org/details/historicalregis03heitgoogFCW Yes, Fred, I had thought of that possibility but the word "Assistant" is capitalized indicating a title as opposed to a simple adjective. I was giving Darling the benefit of the doubt that he knew the difference; but you may well be correct if Heitman's has no listing of him. Here's more confusion for you: on page 31 of More Army Blue: The Uniform of Uncle Sam's Regulars 1874-1887 by John Langellier there is a photo of what the caption states is "Acting Asst. Surgeon Victor Biart" in FULL dress uniform cradling an 1840 Medical Dept. sword. Now this has to be a mistake as I'm quite certain contract docs were not issued uniforms. Regarding Dr. Mann again if DeWolf mentions him several times in his diary then he (Mann) must have been at Ft. Lincoln in the March-May 1876 time frame. DeWolf signed a one year contract in Oct. 1875 and arrived in Dakota mid November where he wintered at Ft. Totten. Any association with Mann had to have been brief in nature. At any rate Joe has aroused my curiosity on Dr. Mann; it is always interesting to learn about the lesser known personalities of the Custer story. Happy New Year to you and yours as well Fred. Best wishes for 2012. I will toast its arrival with a cold bottle of Moose Drool.
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Post by drahmann on Jan 1, 2012 9:15:49 GMT -6
Steve, My feelings exactly. I am related to this doctor and I have been trying to find accurate information for years.
He seems to be even more active and interesting than has been stated at this site also. in brief he: was with the 26th Ill during the Civil War, served during the Indian wars, served during the Spanish American War, practiced as a civilian, was appointed a military attache' to Brazil (not sure he served) With all this and more, one would think that he would be more famous
Joe
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Post by fred on Jan 1, 2012 9:48:41 GMT -6
Yes, Fred, I had thought of that possibility but the word "Assistant" is capitalized indicating a title as opposed to a simple adjective. I was giving Darling the benefit of the doubt that he knew the difference; but you may well be correct if Heitman's has no listing of him. Steve, Yes, "Acting" should be capitalized; it was an official title because they all carried it. I would also agree with you here, but look at this from Heitman's: Biart, Victor. Belgium. Kans. Asst surg 6June1878; retd 21Oct1891.Interesting, don't you think? No "Acting" in the title. And check out the start date: June 6, 1878, yet in your Langellier book, the photo shows an 1840 sword. So while the date is essentially meaningless, the "Acting" in the title must be an error. Joe is providing us with some fun with this ancestor of his, isn't he? Happy New Year, Steve, to you and all those you hold dear. Moose Drool is a great beer, but I downed a couple of Widmer Seasonal Brrrs my dear friend from Washington shipped to me. New Years ushers in old Veuve Clicquot champagne for me, as well. Very best wishes, Fred.
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