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Post by drahmann on Dec 27, 2011 8:11:31 GMT -6
I was wondering if anybody has a list of the members that were with the 7th that went to the LBH. I am looking for a surviving member of the battle named Mann. I saw a photo by D F Barry at the 1886 anniversary of the surviving battle members and showed a Lt. Mann. I have long been searching for a Dr. A H Mann that resigned before Custer went to the LBH.
Thanks, Joe
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Post by fred on Dec 27, 2011 9:32:36 GMT -6
I was wondering if anybody has a list of the members that were with the 7th that went to the LBH. I am looking for a surviving member of the battle named Mann. I saw a photo by D F Barry at the 1886 anniversary of the surviving battle members and showed a Lt. Mann. I have long been searching for a Dr. A H Mann that resigned before Custer went to the LBH. Joe, There was only one officer in the Seventh Cavalry by the name of Mann, and he came in a year after the battle: Mann, James Defrees-- born, Indiana; home of record, Indiana. He was a cadet at the Military Academy and graduated 1Jul1873 (36th in his class). Appointed 2LT 7th Cavalry, 15Jun1877; and 1LT 22Jul1890; died of wounds, 15Jan1891, received in action with Sioux Indians at White Clay Creek, South Dakota, 30Dec1890.I cannot explain why there is that almost-4-year gap in his record between his graduation from West Point and his assignment to the Seventh, but it seems to be accurate. I assume there were no statutory obligations associated with the Academy in those days-- but I could very well be mistaken about that, so be forewarned!-- and it could be that the lack of officers in the regiment (because of the LBH) prompted Mann to accept a commission... I do not know. The name A. H. Mann rings a bell, but I cannot pinpoint it. There was never a military surgeon by that name, so if he was with the Seventh at any time, it was as a civilian contract surgeon, similar in nature to doctors Porter and DeWolf at the LBH. Only Dr. Lord was a military officer/surgeon. Best I can do, my boy! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by drahmann on Dec 27, 2011 12:09:48 GMT -6
my Dr. Mann was indeed a surgeon with the 7th from about the spring of 1873 (previously he was with the 18th US inf) Dr. A H Mann was stationed at the Grand River Agency from about June 1873 till ?? He accompanied Custer on his expeditions in 1873 & 1874. (I have several references and letters proving this. Dr. Mann was a civilian in 1886 and in this photo from Barry on the survivors of the LBH, the person noted as Lt. Mann is clearly dressed in civilian clothing. If the person in this photo was James D. Mann (the West Point Grad you mention) he would NEVER been out of uniform at that time. While my Dr. AH Mann was not actually at the LBH he was actually wounded by Rain in the Face in 1873 and did not go on the expedition because of this wound and considered himself a "survivor" because of this.
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Post by fred on Dec 27, 2011 15:26:50 GMT -6
Dr. Mann was indeed a surgeon with the 7th from about the spring of 1873 (previously he was with the 18th US inf) Dr. A H Mann was stationed at the Grand River Agency from about June 1873 till ?? He accompanied Custer on his expeditions in 1873 & 1874. (I have several references and letters proving this.) That may very well be-- and as I have said, the name rings a bell, but I cannot place it and I do not have his name in any of my notes (more than 2,000 pages-worth)-- but he was not a military surgeon! He had to have been a "contract surgeon," just like DeWolf and Porter. Those guys were civilians, signed on for a stint, by written contract, very much like scouts. Don't bet on it. We still have not accounted for those missing four years between his graduation from West Point (1873) and his arrival in the Seventh Cavalry (1877). He is not listed in Klokner and that means he was never in the Seventh, as an officer, at any time between 1866 and 1876. I think that is a little presumptuous on Mann's part. He could hardly have been considered-- by anyone-- as a LBH survivor, just because he was wounded by Rain In The Face in 1873. If the 1873 wound was a fact, he sustained it-- in all likelihood-- on the Yellowstone Expedition. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by drahmann on Dec 28, 2011 9:03:12 GMT -6
how does a person get information on contract surgeons?
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Post by benteen on Dec 28, 2011 9:29:44 GMT -6
I was wondering if anybody has a list of the members that were with the 7th that went to the LBH. I am looking for a surviving member of the battle named Mann. I saw a photo by D F Barry at the 1886 anniversary of the surviving battle members and showed a Lt. Mann. I have long been searching for a Dr. A H Mann that resigned before Custer went to the LBH. Thanks, Joe drahmann, Joe, just for my own curiosity why have you been searching for Dr A.H. Mann. I understand your interest in Pvt William B. Whaley as you believe he may be a relation, but what is your interest in this doctor. Be Well Dan
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Post by drahmann on Dec 28, 2011 10:07:18 GMT -6
Dan, I am related to both Dr. AH Mann and William B Whaley (both through my mother's line....her maiden name was Whaley and her mother's maiden name was Mann) I have always known a little about Dr Mann and I have spent a lot of time lately researching him. In the process I stumbled upon W B Whaley and discovered that I am related to him also.
Thanks, Joe
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Post by bc on Dec 28, 2011 11:17:52 GMT -6
how does a person get information on contract surgeons? You have to dig around the US archives for medical reports. The surgeons and hospitals kept daily detailed records of goings on and who was treated for what etc. Maybe Billy can point you in the right direction. Billy, if you see this post, we are thinking about going to Leavenworth on Friday to check things out. The fort, not the prison. Are you going to be around? I will dig around to see if I can find your number. We may end up going to Topeka instead though. bc
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jag
Full Member
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Post by jag on Dec 28, 2011 12:20:46 GMT -6
Dan, I am related to both Dr. AH Mann and William B Whaley (both through my mother's line....her maiden name was Whaley and her mother's maiden name was Mann) I have always known a little about Dr Mann and I have spent a lot of time lately researching him. In the process I stumbled upon W B Whaley and discovered that I am related to him also. Thanks, Joe Joe, Here is what I found on a quick search online. Interesting Mann. www.getruralkansas.org/Toronto/168Explore/1133.shtmlDr. A.H. Mann About this Exploration: On September 1, 1861, Arad Mann started his military career by joining the Twenty-Sixth Illinois Volunteer Infantry. In the four years he served with them he climbed the ranks from hospital steward to assistant surgeon. Mann then joined the regular U.S. Army as assistant surgeon in the Spring of 1866. After accompanying General Custer and the Seventh Calvary to Yellowstone and the Black Hills he immediately telegraphed his resignation once he was ordered out on Custer's fatal expedition in 1875. On September 2, 1875 he married Eleanor Eads, cousin of Capt. J. B. Eads. Dr. Mann practiced medicine in Chicago for three years before coming to Toronto and continuing with his profession. He is buried at Toronto Cemetery. The musical times, Volume 25 It mentions him on pg. 653books.google.com/books?id=XowPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA653&lpg=PA653&dq=Dr.+A.+H.+Mann,+cavalry&source=bl&ots=32t8nqbkux&sig=eOXgXvqvv76RpqXZhPmPz9eQDnc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hFr7Ts3VCMae2wXW0YyjAg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Dr.%20A.%20H.%20Mann%2C%20cavalry&f=false William G. Cutler's History of the State of Kansaswww.kancoll.org/books/cutler/woodson/woodson-co-p7.htmlThe first professional man to reside in Toronto was Dr. A. H. Mann, who came in 1871, and is still in practice. A doctor without a drug store at his back would be an anomaly, and soon after Dr. Mann's settlement W. L. Lockard added a line of drugs to the general stock of the store. DR. A. H. MANN, physician and surgeon, was born in Shelby County, Ohio, October 5, 1841, son of Albert and Mary Mann. At an early age, moved with parents to Delaware County, where he remained about seven years, then moved to Lexington, Richland Co., Ohio; remained until 1859, and moved to Knoxville, Knox Co., Ill. He studied medicine under his father's instruction until the breaking-out of the rebellion, when he enlisted in Twenty-sixth Illinois Volunteer Infantry, September 1, 1861, and served as Hospital Steward until April, 1864, when he was made Assistant Surgeon, and in March, 1865, was promoted Surgeon. Was mustered out July, 1865. He entered the Regular United States Army as Assistant Surgeon in the spring of 1866. Was ordered to Ft. Fetterman, Wyoming Territory, October 5, 1866; remained in that department until ordered to Vicksburg, May 22, 1867; thence to Pine Bluff, Ark., July 7; thence to Meridian, Miss., June 17, 1868; thence back to Little Rock, Ark., November, 1868. He then came to Toronto in March, 1869, and practiced medicine about eleven months; during this time was on the waiting order list, and was finally ordered to Ft. Stevenson, D. T., September 1, 1871; thence to Columbia, S. C., October 9, 1872. He accompanied Custer's command on the Yellow Stone and Black Hills expedition, which started out in March, 1873. Was ordered to Grand River Agency, Dakota Territory, July, 1873, and was severely wounded by the Indians at Grand River, D. T., in May, 1874. When ordered out on Custer's fatal expedition in 1875, he at once telegraphed his resignation and went to Chicago where he practiced his profession about three years, and in 1878, came to Toronto, Kan., where he has ever since practiced medicine. Having had an extensive and varied experience in therapeutics and surgery, his skill is called into requisition in the most difficult cases, and his services are highly appreciated by the people of Woodson County. He was married at McComb, Ill., September 2, 1875, to Eleanor Eads, cousin of Capt. J. B. Eads, of Mississippi jetties fame; she is a native of Illinois, and an intelligent and accomplished lady. Don't know if... but could be... because of the "musical times" mentioned above. The New music review and church music review, Volume 15books.google.com/books?id=l2cNAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=Dr.+A.+H.+Mann,+cavalry&source=bl&ots=xDU24QFkdV&sig=zUBJOfttFyAMBmrH4k1-umDKgZ4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hFr7Ts3VCMae2wXW0YyjAg&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Dr.%20A.%20H.%20Mann&f=false
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Post by fred on Dec 28, 2011 18:01:45 GMT -6
This is all rather interesting. Here is the entry for George Lord in Heitman's Register:
Lord, George Edwin. Mass. Mass. Asst surgeon 26 June 1875; killed 25 June 1876 in action with Sioux Indians on Little Big Horn River Mont.
There is no such entry for A. H. Mann. I wonder, therefore, who wrote those bio clips for Mann. Did Mann do it himself? Was Joe giving us the literal story of Mann claiming to be a "LBH survivor," or just a survivor of a fight with Indians? A little exaggeration? A little chest-pumping perchance? Interesting. And I have never known Heitman's to be wrong.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by drahmann on Dec 29, 2011 5:51:10 GMT -6
thanks bc
Jag, I have seen all the information EXCEPT the "musical times" is from England I believe and probably NOT my Dr. Mann. But the one from Illinois is VERY interesting!!!!!!
[quoteThis is all rather interesting. Here is the entry for George Lord in Heitman's Register:
Lord, George Edwin. Mass. Mass. Asst surgeon 26 June 1875; killed 25 June 1876 in action with Sioux Indians on Little Big Horn River Mont.
There is no such entry for A. H. Mann. I wonder, therefore, who wrote those bio clips for Mann. Did Mann do it himself? Was Joe giving us the literal story of Mann claiming to be a "LBH survivor," or just a survivor of a fight with Indians? A little exaggeration? A little chest-pumping perchance? Interesting. And I have never known Heitman's to be wrong.
Best wishes, Fred.quote]
Fred, nobody is suggesting that Dr. Mann was LITERALLY a LBH survivor. some of my information comes from his obit written by his nephew who knew him quite well:
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Post by fred on Dec 29, 2011 8:11:16 GMT -6
... nobody is suggesting that Dr. Mann was LITERALLY a LBH survivor. some of my information comes from his obit written by his nephew who knew him quite well.... Okay, that clears up some of that. It also makes one wonder who wrote the other pieces, because, again, without the Heitman reference, there is no other indication he was anything other than a contract surgeon. That, certainly, is not a bad thing; it simply means he was not among the uniformed personnel. And if anyone questions a contract surgeon's bravery or character, let them think of Henry Rinaldo Porter and what he did atop Reno Hill. The fact that A. H. Mann "served" with the Seventh Cavalry under Custer-- regardless of when and in what capacity-- should make a descendant proud. I know I would be; the closest any of my relatives got was in name similarity. There is a fellow named Joe Kelly ("bandboxtroop") on the other boards whose great-great-grandfather died on Last Stand Hill, a member of F Company. And Joe was banged up pretty good in Iraq. A damn fine young man. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by drahmann on Dec 29, 2011 9:01:48 GMT -6
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Post by fred on Dec 29, 2011 9:46:13 GMT -6
Fred, Just a question......... Would a contract surgeon in 1873 be considered an officer? Joe, Yes; absolutely. All the contract surgeons were treated as officers. They palled around together; ate together; socialized together. The accounts of the campaign are loaded with such references. DeWolf going shooting with Harrington and some others; Benteen riding with Lord. Porter riding alongside Reno, etc. And don't get me wrong, Joe. I am not trying to minimize or denigrate Mann's record or service. There is no stigma whatsoever in being a contract surgeon, as opposed to a uniformed member of the military. And actually, I would give the contract guys more credit than I would those in the military. The latter had the coziness and security of a military existence-- such as it was; contract men volunteered to serve, even though they were paid. There were a lot more less dangerous venues to practice one's profession than chasing after Indians. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 29, 2011 21:08:57 GMT -6
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