Red Shirt, Oglala

[stephenh]

I've just spent the summer on Pine Ridge, at Red Shirt Table. I'm wondering if anyone has any information on the following: which chief Red Shirt gave his name to the locality known as Red Shirt on Pine Ridge? Where did this Red Shirt die, and where is he buried?
Locally, it is believed that he was the Red Shirt famously photographed with Red Cloud in Washington DC, who later toured with Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show. It is also thought that he might have married, had a family, died, and is buried somewhere in Italy.
Can anyone shed any light?

[fred]

You will find the following in a little book called, Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn:

∆ Red Shirt—(Oglala Lakota – Teton Sioux)—He was an Oglala soldier at the Red Cloud Agency in 1871. He was considered an agency Indian. In 1880 he traveled with Red Cloud to Washington D. C. and seven years later joined the Buffalo Bill Wild West Show, touring Europe. He was still alive in 1909. While there is considerable speculation about his presence at the Little Big Horn, he was listed in the Crazy Horse surrender ledger in 1877, making it fairly likely that he was present at the Little Big Horn. Along with Brave Wolf and Bad Horse (High White Man), listed as “head-of-household.” Lodge consisted of three adult females, five male children, and three female children; total of fourteen people.

Hope it helps.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Dietmar]

Stephen,

you find additional info on Red Shirt here:

lbha.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Indians&action=display&thread=1582&page=1

and here:

amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=oglala1&action=display&thread=1061

[rosebud]

While there is considerable speculation about his presence at the Little Big Horn, he was listed in the Crazy Horse surrender ledger in 1877, making it fairly likely that he was present at the Little Big Horn.
Fred


Here we go again. If we use Fred's logic. Any white person born in Alabama was fairly likely to be a KKK member. Heck, if you are white and even know someone from Alabama you are likely a member of the KKK.

If Fred can find the name of an Indian that was alive in 1876 he will say they were likely to be at the LBH.

It is just as possible for Red Shirt to be with Crazy Horse because he was helping Red Cloud try and talk Crazy Horse into giving up his wicked ways.

Over a year has passed before Crazy Horse surrenders. Indians come and go as they please. They were well aware of this in 1877. That is why the Sitting bull, and Crazy Horse surrender ledgers did not prove anything then and they darn sure didn't change anything in 130 years.

The Crazy Horse surrender ledger gives the names of those that were with him in 1877. Nothing more. anything else is just wish-full thinking.

Rosebud

[fred]

Sept 29, 2011 9:06:38 GMT -6 @rosebud said:

Here we go again. If we use Fred's logic. Any white person born in Alabama was fairly likely to be a KKK member. Heck, if you are white and even know someone from Alabama you are likely a member of the KKK.

If Fred can find the name of an Indian that was alive in 1876 he will say they were likely to be at the LBH.

Yeah, "here we go again" is right. If you pulled your head out of your ass long enough to recognize daylight, you would be able to see the fairly short entry is rife with caveats, plus it is marked by my—now infamous— ∆.

I just love all you clowns who have all the answers, yet have never been able to put up anything in place of what you want to tear down. It's sort of like your simple-minded fool buddy, "jag," calling Reno a coward. By what right? His own vast experience in combat? Gimme a break! Some of you blowhards mock DC for his admission of "cowardice," but DC has more character in his little finger than most of you even understand, and people with character don't run. Where is all the service time and the medals you chumps can produce to show your bona fides in calling any combat vet a coward?

It is the same thing with researching someone we know virtually nothing about; you can only publish it with the necessary "what-ifs" and "maybes." At least I have done that and I make no bones about telling anyone that my work is nothing more than a synthesis of work done by more than 200 others. Despite my age and rumors to the contrary, my name is not Walter Mason Camp... and everyone who was at the LBH is dead.

As for logic, I don't need any lessons on that subject, especially from some back-woods shitkicker who couldn't produce 100 names of anyone who was at the battle, white, black, red, or yellow, without running to the library. And if that sounds elitist... good!, because based on what some of you have put up here, I feel elitist.

Now quit following me around. If you want to post more of your snot-riven drivel, do so, but beware of those who have circled back on you.

With something other than best wishes,
Fred.

[jag]

Sept 29, 2011 12:12:07 GMT -6 fred said:

Sept 29, 2011 9:06:38 GMT -6 @rosebud said:

Here we go again. If we use Fred's logic. Any white person born in Alabama was fairly likely to be a KKK member. Heck, if you are white and even know someone from Alabama you are likely a member of the KKK.

If Fred can find the name of an Indian that was alive in 1876 he will say they were likely to be at the LBH.

Yeah, "here we go again" is right. If you pulled your head out of your ass long enough to recognize daylight, you would be able to see the fairly short entry is rife with caveats, plus it is marked by my—now infamous— ∆.

I just love all you clowns who have all the answers, yet have never been able to put up anything in place of what you want to tear down. It's sort of like your simple-minded fool buddy, "jag," calling Reno a coward. By what right? His own vast experience in combat? Gimme a break! Some of you blowhards mock DC for his admission of "cowardice," but DC has more character in his little finger than most of you even understand, and people with character don't run. Where is all the service time and the medals you chumps can produce to show your bona fides in calling any combat vet a coward?

It is the same thing with researching someone we know virtually nothing about; you can only publish it with the necessary "what-ifs" and "maybes." At least I have done that and I make no bones about telling anyone that my work is nothing more than a synthesis of work done by more than 200 others. Despite my age and rumors to the contrary, my name is not Walter Mason Camp... and everyone who was at the LBH is dead.

As for logic, I don't need any lessons on that subject, especially from some back-woods shitkicker who couldn't produce 100 names of anyone who was at the battle, white, black, red, or yellow, without running to the library. And if that sounds elitist... good!, because based on what some of you have put up here, I feel elitist.

Now quit following me around. If you want to post more of your snot-riven drivel, do so, but beware of those who have circled back on you.

With something other than best wishes,
Fred.

Fred,

I didn't call Reno a coward. I never have. And if you'd care to read the whole statements written by me so far, you'd clearly see that I have not done that. I would suggest to you to take back this inflammatory statement. I support no position in this matter that places the burden of proof on my opinion only, and I haven't expressed one here. Just because you and DC feel that Whittaker's letter a piece of crap and shouldn't have been the basis of anything at the RCOI, that, simply wasn't the fact of that matter. And if you think for a moment that they didn't take serious the charges Whittaker had made, you'd be dead assed wrong like the VC sniper who blew a hole through your rear end when you weren't looking for it. The court did take serious those charges and was the reason they were read and entered into evidence as exhibit #1.

[fred]

Sept 29, 2011 12:23:28 GMT -6 jag said:

I didn't call Reno a coward. I never have.

Then I apologize, clearly, for that.

I would suggest to you to take back this inflammatory statement.

I take back nothing other than an incorrect statement accusing you of something you didn't say or write. And if it's inflammatory, then tough, let those it applies to suck it up.

I am sick and tired of these morons who can offer nothing in place of the work others do that they tear down. It is like everything else in this country; everyone has an opinion as to why everything someone else does is no good. Then substitute something in its place, something someone else can tear down. You want the definition of cowardice, well that's one of them.

Just because you and DC feel that Whittaker's letter a piece of crap...

You do the same thing you accuse me of doing. I never said Whittaker's letter was a piece of crap; my opinion on the matter was that Whittaker was a sensationalist and a literary climber. He spotted an opportunity and went for it. Do I blame him? No, not really, except for the fact that he engaged in sullying the reputations of a couple of men who didn't need it, one of whom that didn't deserve it.

Reno needed this COI, whether it was fomented by Whittaker or Libbie. The military takes care of its own, one way or another, and whether one likes it or not, most senior officers are savvy men who try-- for the most part-- to do the right thing. 1876 or 1879 was no different than today. Ever hear of the modern-day "letter of reprimand"? General, lieutenant, OCS, ROTC, West Point, 30 years in, 10, 5, 18 years... get one and your career is over.

And if you think for a moment that they didn't take serious the charges Whittaker had made, you'd be dead assed wrong.... The court did take serious those charges and was the reason they were read and entered into evidence as exhibit #1.

I do not recall ever saying anything different and I have read the RCOI so many times, I have lost track. My main point with Whittaker's letter was that neither Whittaker nor anything this civilian wrote, would be the root demand for an inquiry to be called. Not by the army it wasn't. It had no legal force.

It could, however-- and I think this is what DC was alluding to-- have been a cause for Congress to call a hearing. That, however, was a political matter and something out of the military's control. Again, if I read DC correctly, Reno was wise to insist on a military inquiry rather than let it simmer and explode into a Congressional mess.

Now... I am perfectly willing to start over and to forget this acrimony, but I have no interest in being blind-sided by idiots, especially when I post with caveats or put up opinions. I don't do it and I don't expect it to be done by me. If someone disagrees with me, fine, state it, prove your point and we'll debate it or agree to disagree. People should understand by now that I don't take anyone's bullshit and I hate these snotty responses like I am a fool. I especially dislike being compared to the KKK or like organizations in any capacity, in any comparison, in any form. I got disgusted with "keogh" on the other board because he called me a shill, and even after I confronted him, face-to-face, he kept it up. That won't happen here.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[jag]

I am quite sure the army of 1876 was the exact same as it was in 1966, not one damn dimes worth of difference. Maybe someone should undertake these similarities so we can all take courses at More on U.

[rosebud]

Fred........Show me one Indian who saw Red Cloud or Red Shirt at the LBH and I will leave you alone.

You have over 10,000 to choose from, so it shouldn't be to hard.

I stand by what I have said, In your words..."Prove me wrong".

I do wish you well. And that's the truth.
Rosebud

Fairly likely they were at the LBH? Maybe someone else has to get their head in the right place.

As for following you around. I don't take vacations to New York.
You take vacations to Montana to follow me around. I am not part of your congregation.

infamous— ∆. You seem to forget the meaning of your own symbol. It means they have a good chance of ....NOT... being at the LBH.

Again, Best wishes
Justin

[rosebud]

Posted #86 on Oct 10, 2006, 9:09am by Ephriam Dickson III

Good morning, everyone:

During the early reservation period, there were three men named Red Shirt living on Pine Ridge. Just a caution for the possibility of confusing the various individuals.

The Red Shirt appearing in the photographs and who traveled with the Buffalo Bill Wild West Show was, as already noted, a member of the Wagluhe or Loafer Band, generally considered to be a mixture of Oglala and Brule.

In an interview in 1923, Red Shirt noted that he was born near a fort on the Platte River in Wyoming, the name of which he could not recall. Hans recently forwarded a reference to me that indicated Red Shirt was born near Orin Junction. For those of you not from Wyoming, Orin is roughly twenty miles downstream from Fort Fetterman.

Several books have indicated that Red Shirt was the son of Red Dog. This is incorrect. I have not been able to locate the original reference for this information but it is possible that this was a reference to one of the other Red Shirts (Remember, Red Dog was a Hunkpapa who married into the Oyuhpe Oglala).

Several sources indicate that our Red Shirt was the son of a white man and a Lakota mother. We do not yet know their names.

A young man named Red Shirt was part of the 1870 delegation to Washington D.C., though I can not say for certain that this was him. By the time of the Great Sioux War of 1876-77, he was a rising young man within one of the military societies, an "up and coming" individual among the Wagluhe. This band had been led by the prominent headman Big Mouth, until he was shot and killed by Spotted Tail; Big Mouth's brother Blue Horse by the mid-1870s was the most influential member of this band. In the fall of 1876 as the army dismounted and disarmed the agency bands, Blue Horse was arrested by Gen. Mackenzie for not turning in northern Indians slipping into his village. After that, Blue Horse seems to disappear from prominence, perhaps he stepped back from active political engagement. In this vacuum, several young men emerged as leaders among the Wagluhe, most prominently American Horse and Three Bears. Red Shirt seems to be most closely associated with Three Bears during this period; perhaps kind of his lieutenant.

Given his association with the Loafers, I doubt that Red Shirt was at the Little Bighorn, though we should note that a number of young men had gone out independently from their band. In later years, newspaper articles about the Wild West Show specifically stated that Red Shirt was at the Little Bighorn, but that should be taken with some skeptism, given the Buffalo Bill Cody PR machine. No doubt it was good for business for the Indians in his show to be advertised as having been at the LBH. But the possibility cannot be entirely discounted without further research.

Red Shirt became leader of a small band of Loafers on Pine Ridge about 1878-79. In his 1923 interview, he showed commissioners his chief's certificate dated 1879 signed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior. In 1880, he traveled to Carlisle Barracks and on to Washington D.C. with Red Cloud.

Red Shirt's leadership role appears to have only lasted a few years. He soon became involved with the Wild West Shows which seems to be his main economic support for the next several decades. We will have to do some more research into his final decade to know if he became involved again at all in Oglala politics. He died in 1925 (I have the actual date at home, but cannot recall it off the top of my head).

Hope this is helpful.

ephriam

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I think Ephriam is more in tune with the Indians than Fred.
Rosebud

[redshirt82]

I am the great-great grandson of Red Shirt and what many say about his legacy is nothing more than speculation. I for one could care less if he was at Little Big Horn. Yes Red Shirt, South Dakota was named after him, when given the choice, Red Shirt chose that particular area so he could be as close to the Black Hills as possible. My great grandfathers legacy is not hinged upon Little Big Horn, from what my elders have said he was there regardless of what the wasicun has written. 

[fred]

Mar 2, 2014 19:28:02 GMT -6 redshirt82 said:

I am the great-great grandson of Red Shirt....

Well, Red Shirt, you are certainly welcome here. It is my privilege to "speak" to you.

I do not know much about your great-great-grandfather, but he must have been a great man. I wrote a book and included the names of almost 1,500 Native Americans who were at the battle on the Little Big Horn River. Here is what I wrote about Red Shirt:

Red Shirt—(Oglala Lakota – Teton Sioux)—He was an Oglala soldier at the Red Cloud Agency in 1871. He was considered an agency Indian. In 1880 he traveled with Red Cloud to Washington D. C. and seven years later joined the Buffalo Bill Wild West Show, touring Europe. He was still alive in 1909. While there is considerable speculation about his presence at the Little Big Horn, he was listed in the Crazy Horse surrender ledger in 1877, making it fairly likely that he was present at the Little Big Horn. Along with Brave Wolf and Bad Horse (High White Man), listed as “head-of-household.” Lodge consisted of three adult females, five male children, and three female children; total of fourteen people.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[tubman13]

Mar 2, 2014 19:28:02 GMT -6 redshirt82 said:

I am the great-great grandson of Red Shirt  

I would like to add my welcome as well. I hope all is well with you and your family. The Black Hills certainly do look black when viewed from just west of the Badlands. I have friends in Newell, near Bear Butte, a very spiritual place. Has there been any progress in protection of that sacred place?

I just referred to the picture taken of the 1880, Delegation to Washington. Your great, great grandfather and Little Wound are certainly the most handsome of the group,

according to my wife, when she first saw the picture. Your great , great grandfather must have been a very important man.

I'm sorry that your people suffered from this county's first social welfare program gone bad. I guess I could call it worse than that, others have.

Please feel free to contribute here.  

Regards,

Tom 

[redshirt82]

Well I am never one to believe what Wikipedia has written about Red Shirt. Why is it so important for everybody to find out who was at Little Big Horn, if my Elders said he was there then he was there but I am not going to let that define his legacy or taint his honor. All the elders in my family talked of Red Shirt's greatness in battle regardless of his presence at LBH. All that has been written about him has come from the pen of White writers and historians, so I for one will not take their word over the words of my elders. I was born a Red Shirt, my dad was a Red Shirt and so was his father and so on. All of my grandfathers spoke of his bravery, the Wikipedia article states he opposed Crazy Horse that was not true. The open jealousy that Red Cloud showed towards Crazy Horse has labeled all who have names like Red Shirt, Red Owl, Red Eagle, just basically anybody with Red in their name is automatically anti-Crazy Horse or anti-Sitting Bull. 

[fred]

Mar 25, 2014 16:49:48 GMT -6 redshirt82 said:

Well I am never one to believe what Wikipedia has written about Red Shirt.

Why do you care about what Wikipedia says about your ancestor? And why would you come here complaining about it?

Why don't you do as I suggested... or asked? Why don't you send me a Private Message (above) and maybe we can e-mail one another and you can state your case for your ancestor. Quite frankly, I believe Red Shirt was a great man and clearly a leader among his people. The only way for people to know that is for someone like you to tell them. I am quite willing to listen... because I am very interested in you, your family, and your people. Personally, I know idiots who don't believe you and I would like nothing better than to slap this across their face.

If you cannot do this, then you should stop complaining about Wikipedia... at least here.

Best wishes,
Fred.