Worst error?

[jag]

Nov 15, 2011 2:38:01 GMT -6 wild said:

Anticipate their moves and get them to do what you want them to do.That's defence not offence.

Well, I'd say the Indians anticipated what Custer's moves was going to be and got him to do what they wanted him to do. And to think, they didn't have to plan a defensive strategy or have any leader tell them to do it and offensively destroyed his battalion and ran Reno's off the field of battle.

[Yan Taylor]

Once Custer and his command was spotted he was on the defensive, going on Indian accounts the soldiers deployed in skirmish lines and Custer waited about for 20 minutes, this looks like a defensive posture to me, but having said that, when the Indians broke off the Reno pursuit they took the fight to the soldiers not the soldiers taking the fight to the Indians.

Ian.

[quincannon]

Richard: You anticipate on both offense and defense. On defense it is more the anticipation how do I catch the fly in the web. On offense it is more of if I do this he will do that, or possibly one of a number of thats, making the right choice, but anticipating the rest.

A good example of the latter is El Caney, where Lawton moved around the San Juan Heights to remove a threat to the flank, thinking he could do it very quickly and rejoin the San Juan fight and add decisive weight to the battle. He moved with his division of over 7000 against about one tenth of that number of Spanish. He anticipated a retreat by the Spanish at best, and an easy fire fight at worst. He anticipated it would take a couple of hours. In stead he got a stand up firefight lasting all day, sustained a great number of casualties, and left the forces in front of San Juan Heights to get pounded and pummeled. He anticipated one thing on offense when he should have planned for ALL of the what ifs.

JAG: I don't think the hostiles anticipated anything. They were caught by surprise. The difference in the battle was that the hostiles reacted faster than Custer could adjust.

[jag]

Nov 15, 2011 8:42:34 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

Once Custer and his command was spotted he was on the defensive, going on Indian accounts the soldiers deployed in skirmish lines and Custer waited about for 20 minutes, this looks like a defensive posture to me, but having said that, when the Indians broke off the Reno pursuit they took the fight to the soldiers not the soldiers taking the fight to the Indians.

Ian.

I've got to ask:

Why you'd think that just being spotted would have automatically have put any of his commands on the defensive? According to what we know, when Custer, in the only instance we know of, looked down upon that village it appeared to be deserted. Why should the women and children, dogs and pony's spotting him put him on the defensive?

Do you think that because he deployed into skirmish lines that was a mistake? That because he did, this also indicated he was on the defensive?

And where do you get the 20 minutes waiting?

It sounds like you think all the Indians went downstream after chasing off Reno and helped kill Custer, is that right?

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Jag, Custer for some reason never attacked the village, the Indians broke off from Reno and attack him, so either Custer wanted to find higher ground or he was forced there, either way there was no major advance by the soldiers into the village.
Skirmish Lines do sound like a defensive posture to me.

When Benteen reach Reno Hill, did some Officers say that the majority of Indians had moved away?

I remember Fred posting this a while back (sorry to use your stuff Fred):

Two Moons: The Grey Horse Troop was the only company that held its horses. Each man held his own and there was no shooting by them. “They were making preparations’’.

I will try to find the name of the Indian who supposed to have come up with the account over soldiers halted in this area for this length of time.
Maybe it was Wolf Tooth, I will check.

[rosebud]

Yan:
Before you start to get carried away with using individual Indian testimony. First find out where the information came from and most of the time you will find that it will fit with what that interviewer wants for his theory. You also need to understand the Indian. Who is he mad at? Does he have a bone to pick with anyone? Do they have something to hide?

I am going to give you a small example.
Gall: In an interview Gall said that they knew that the soldiers were coming and it was not a surprise. He claims the Indians were ready for Custer.

Later Gall said that the soldiers with Reno killed his wife and kids or something like that.

Now I will ask anyone........Do you think that if you know the army is coming that you would leave your wife and kids at that end of the valley? You would know damn well that they will be the first one to be in danger.

Use Indian testimony at your own risk. It is liable to bite you on the ass.

Two Moons?......Check and see what other Indians have to say about Two Moons before you quote him to much.

[Dark Cloud]

Exactly, RB.

It's Two Moon. Not Moons, unless something's changed. If so, mea culpa.

As important as the actual quote from anyone is the year that it entered the public record. That's why it's difficult to think Martin forgot meeting Boston for decades, because it does not appear in the RCOI, and Lee appears unfamiliar with it. As does everyone, including Martin.

Again: beware predicate tenses in Indian quotes that did not exist in their language. Beware the cadences of English lit when reading those quotes. Beware the appearance of geographical names unknown at the time, the rank and name of soldiers, the use of 'minutes' and 'miles' and other things that were of no interest to Indians. Noon does not necessarily equal midday or 12 o'clock or lunchtime but these things are used interchangeably in English and they can be different.

I'd point you to the post made about Indian languages like Sioux. Again.

www.mohicanpress.com/messageboard2/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=614

[rosebud]

Two Moons is not an Indian name. It is a translated English name done by some white guy.
One moon would be right.............One Moons would not sound right.
Two Moons would also be right. In High School I played basketball against Austin Two Moons. When one looks in the phone book you can still find a Matthew Twomoons.
Either way is right. As long as you are describing that Indian, either can and will be used because it is a white translation and not done by the Indian.

I do agree that in years past, when the Indians have not used the English language as much. They would often say something like this...... I see five cow by river. or ..I need ten dollar.

Now Two Moon will be right because they just talk that way.

Rosebud

[Dark Cloud]

I know Two Moon is not an Indian name, being in English, although it seems to be a patois type of name with the grammar of one and the meaning of the other. I do know that the Cheyenne chief at the LBH was called Two Moon and it's on his tomb, as I recall. Second moon of the year or the like. That others are called Two Moons is fine but not necessarily relevant.

This is of the same importance level that MacLeod and McLeod engender: zero, but I've been corrected by Cheyenne enthusiasts, at least one of whom was Cheyenne. Just saying.

[wild]

Hi Cathal
Richard: You anticipate on both offense and defense.
On offense I though the reserve would cover that.
Custer did some anticipating and it cost him 3 troops and his best soldier at a vital moment.

[jag]

Nov 15, 2011 9:55:30 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

Hi Jag, Custer for some reason never attacked the village, the Indians broke off from Reno and attack him, so either Custer wanted to find higher ground or he was forced there, either way there was no major advance by the soldiers into the village.
Skirmish Lines do sound like a defensive posture to me.

When Benteen reach Reno Hill, did some Officers say that the majority of Indians had moved away?

I remember Fred posting this a while back (sorry to use your stuff Fred):

Two Moons: The Grey Horse Troop was the only company that held its horses. Each man held his own and there was no shooting by them. “They were making preparations’’.

I will try to find the name of the Indian who supposed to have come up with the account over soldiers halted in this area for this length of time.
Maybe it was Wolf Tooth, I will check.

Ian,

I'd guess your position is as good as any one else's. But are you totally relying upon just one Indian's statement that they all did nothing for about 20 minutes? I suppose it might have happened. If Custer had been wounded at the one of the fording attempts and then some kind of confusion occured over that period of time. It still seems a little improbable that all or even some of them just stood there holding their horses and did nothing while the Indians presumably did their thing. Which seemed to be a lot of firing and charging at them.

I'm not sure what Twomoon was seeing. "Each man held his own horse"? That wasn't sop for unmounted troopers. What preparations? The assigned horse holder was to take the other three horses from the three dismounted troopers in their squad and take them to a safe and assigned place, it was as simple as that. If these guys were waiting for someone to give them a clue as what to do, then someon needed to paste a sign to their foreheads to remind them.

Most of those Indian accounts that said they were at the Reno fight and went back to fight at the Custer fight was all huff and puff. And if you'd read what they said you'd know for sure that every one of them didn't get there until it was over there. And all they could do once they did get there was count coup on the dead and dying wounded. There was only a handful who could claim they did fight Custer, and those turned back before engaging Reno or they'd have been huffing and puffing to.

How do you know Custer's battalion never attacked the village?

Contrary to popular belief, Custer's U.S. Cavalry in 1876 was more Dragoons than they were Cavalry. They didn't fight from the horse - unlike what they try to portray in the movies. The Skirmish line was used for everything from offensive formations to defense. When Custer decided not to take the swords he really had no other choice but the skirmish line. At the COI it was stated that once the 6 shots in the revolver had been discharged it was virtually useless in a charge. So Custer limited himself to... the skirmish line - offensively or defensively.

[wild]

Jag a regiment of cavalry charging en masse is a weapon in itself.
If launched at a village such as the one on the LBH would it have caused sufficient terror and confusion as to "defeat"the village.I do not know but there was no other option.

[Yan Taylor]

We have beaten the path about MTC & Ford B many times before on this board, but either way Custer and his command either got hit when it reached the mouth of MTC or when E Company went down to the Ford.
If the command got hit when it reached the bottom of MTC, it would suggest that the Indians were there in force, but they could have been as little as 20, I don’t know, again Indian accounts could tell us more, but as you have said they are unreliable.

The other scenario could be that Custer sent E Coy down to the River, whilst he and the rest of the command took up positions to support them, now to send 38 men to the river is not what I would call an attack, Custer had ordered Reno with about 140 men to attack the village, so why try with a mere 38.

After the MTC/Ford B episode, Custer was either pushed back up to Calhoun Ridge or went there at his own volition, again this is not an offensive posture. If they were under sustained attack they would have to deploy some sort of defence and maybe this is where the Skirmish Lines come into play, now Calhoun Ridge is a fare distance from Ford B (well I have not been there, so I don’t know the exact distance), so to set up Skirmish Lines this far from the Ford does suggest a defensive posture.

After Calhoun Ridge, either Custer was forced onto Custer Ridge or he went with Yates for either find a better position for defence or another ford further up north, if he was forced there, then no major offensive moves could have been made because they were being forced back. If Keogh was left (again in a defensive posture) to wait for Benteen and watch Custer’s rear, what could Custer and Yates do with about 76 men, attack further north, again the Indian accounts come into play, with soldiers (E Coy) on Cemetery Ridge, now if any of the Indian are telling the truth and E Coy was up on Cemetery Ridge (that’s if there locations are correct of course) then this is also a defensive posture, it would take another 38 men out of Yates Wing leaving him with 38 men in F Coy, so now we are back to the Ford B scenario all over again, would Custer attack the village with 38 (F Coy).
I am sorry for using the Indian accounts, but I feel that they are the only ones who survived the battle and even though we can pick holes in what they said they saw, but at the end of the day, they are all we have.

P.S. Hello Richard, how the hell are you.

Ian.

[jag]

Nov 16, 2011 3:38:31 GMT -6 wild said:

Jag a regiment of cavalry charging en masse is a weapon in itself.
If launched at a village such as the one on the LBH would it have caused sufficient terror and confusion as to "defeat"the village.I do not know but there was no other option.

Are you serious? You're joking here aren't you?

Just to be sure we're absolutely on the same damn page here Richard.

ONE
A whole regiment of cavalry charging en-masse at the same moment in time is a weapon in itself.

TWO
If launched properly upon a village, such as the one at the LBH it could have caused sufficient terror and confusion as to "defeat" the village.

THREE
And don't forget to take the swords with you, you're going to need them! No matter how much they shake, rattle or toll. OR, if you plan on quartering back on a ridge, and surrendering the initiative, you'd better take those damn Gatling guns or you'll be toast! The way Custer did this Richard, his only alternative for combat was to do it with his skirmish lines, whether they were all strung out shoulder to shoulder advancing and firing, or doing it the way he tried.

[jag]

Nov 16, 2011 6:09:54 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

We have beaten the path about MTC & Ford B many times before on this board, but either way Custer and his command either got hit when it reached the mouth of MTC or when E Company went down to the Ford.
If the command got hit when it reached the bottom of MTC, it would suggest that the Indians were there in force, but they could have been as little as 20, I don’t know, again Indian accounts could tell us more, but as you have said they are unreliable.

The other scenario could be that Custer sent E Coy down to the River, whilst he and the rest of the command took up positions to support them, now to send 38 men to the river is not what I would call an attack, Custer had ordered Reno with about 140 men to attack the village, so why try with a mere 38.

After the MTC/Ford B episode, Custer was either pushed back up to Calhoun Ridge or went there at his own volition, again this is not an offensive posture. If they were under sustained attack they would have to deploy some sort of defence and maybe this is where the Skirmish Lines come into play, now Calhoun Ridge is a fare distance from Ford B (well I have not been there, so I don’t know the exact distance), so to set up Skirmish Lines this far from the Ford does suggest a defensive posture.

After Calhoun Ridge, either Custer was forced onto Custer Ridge or he went with Yates for either find a better position for defence or another ford further up north, if he was forced there, then no major offensive moves could have been made because they were being forced back. If Keogh was left (again in a defensive posture) to wait for Benteen and watch Custer’s rear, what could Custer and Yates do with about 76 men, attack further north, again the Indian accounts come into play, with soldiers (E Coy) on Cemetery Ridge, now if any of the Indian are telling the truth and E Coy was up on Cemetery Ridge (that’s if there locations are correct of course) then this is also a defensive posture, it would take another 38 men out of Yates Wing leaving him with 38 men in F Coy, so now we are back to the Ford B scenario all over again, would Custer attack the village with 38 (F Coy).
I am sorry for using the Indian accounts, but I feel that they are the only ones who survived the battle and even though we can pick holes in what they said they saw, but at the end of the day, they are all we have.

P.S. Hello Richard, how the hell are you.

Ian.

No I didn't say that the Indian accounts were unreliable. I questioned you about it, but i most certainly made no comment of that kind. Please go back and answer the question(s). And I think you'll find that out. So I'd kindly ask you not to apologize to me about using the Indian accounts. As of yet I've made no comment that they were unreliable, and for you to think that I was insinuating it is presumptuous on your part.

As for these fords. Yup, I said it, fords. Why? "If the command got hit when it reached the bottom of MTC, it would suggest that the Indians were there in force, but they could have been as little as 20, I don’t know..." Make sense yet?