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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 7, 2011 8:56:54 GMT -6
Yeah Rb, you have to take his story with a pinch of salt, I didn't know he was a resident of hectors house. Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2011 9:10:00 GMT -6
Ian: There are those that think Thompson is a purveyor of gospel truth, and others that see him as a board certified Whack-A-Do.
If you make the assumption that the only thing about Thompson that can be considered absolute fact is that he was a member of Company C, 7th Cavalry, you will be well served.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 7, 2011 9:14:33 GMT -6
I wonder if the press at the time give him more credit then he was due, maybe to get a good story for the papers back east, and Thompson being a good opportunist took his chance at being in the lime light and earn a quick buck. Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2011 9:54:24 GMT -6
Ian: I seem to remember that Thompson first told his story to friends. Supposedly he never changed his story throughout the years of his life. I think it was his daughter or some other familiy member that reduced it to written form. Don't really know much about him or the story though. I have seen pictures of him with Kanipe and Mrs. Bobo/Kanipe at LBH for reunions and the like. I think Fred and Rosebud have much more of a handle on Poor Peter than I do or ever wish to have. They will come forth. Also keep in mind that the Thompson story of his wanderings are the basis for a lot of the models folks have about events. These folks have in some cases built their models around Thompson as the teller of all truth. Without the Thomson story their models and the underpinnings of reason are substancially weaker.
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Post by fred on Sept 7, 2011 17:20:03 GMT -6
Ian,
I am a former U. S. Army officer, spending 10 years in such a role and I served this nation in combat. Whenever I read or study a battle I look at it from the perspective of my own experience. When I see what I call a "military operation," I always look at it from what I learned and what I remember. When you add to that the knowledge of what the mission here was and the fact these men had certain understandings of their enemy's behavior, I sit back and think, If I were George Custer what would I do.
One of my earliest "discoveries" was that I could not grasp the significance of certain events, or put those events or actions in the proper context without understanding the timing involved. I was then "beaten up" by the archaeologist, Richard Fox, on one hand, and by Dark Cloud on the other, regarding source material.
All of this "source" stuff, however, still had to fit within my own experiences of military expediency, especially during combat operations. After sifting through as much source material as I could lay my hands on, I discovered that this material fit in extremely well with my own perceptions of combat operations. Obviously, Peter Thompson is a "source," but Thompson's ruminations fell well outside all the boundaries of what I understood to be a military operation of the sort we see at the LBH.
In all of this, I came up with three little rules of thumb: (1) Logic. If the "event" is not logical, it probably didn't happen... not in combat, anyway! (2) Simplicity. In combat, simplicity rules. Once those bullets begin flying, things get real simple, real fast... trust me! If the maneuver or the tactic is too complicated, it just doesn't happen (3) Flow. Events, maneuvers, etc., must flow in a fairly even manner. No back and forth; no odd journeys; no detours; no rescuing maidens while 4,000 warriors are screaming for your scalp.... I mean think about it... how utterly stupid does that sound?!
So... with someone like me, based on what the goals, objectives, and missions of the campaign were; and knowing how elusive these Indians were; and knowing that this was the 40th day; and knowing something of the make-up of George Custer's personality... I have set out my own opinions and theories of the unknown.
All of those things whittle down to a battle that lasted from about 1:35 PM (my time) for the first shots in the valley, to approximately 4:40 PM (my time) for the end of the Custer fighting. Three hours. The battle was characterized by speed (as virtually all battles are... no one walks away from a speeding bullet; no one walks to cover), by viciousness (as all battles are... otherwise no one dies), and by the boss' errors.
Ol' Fred's version has no room, no place for the tall tales of Peter Thompson and his ilk. This was a military operation, not a comic book fairy tale as people like "Conz" and many others would have you believe.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 7, 2011 19:41:32 GMT -6
Ian: I don't completely agree with Fred on timing. I think it started perhaps a little later (not much) and I think the battle was lost by a little after 3:00 in the afternoon. Lost does not mean the end of fighting which I think probably lasted until about 4:30. What I do mean by 3:00 PM is that all of the offensive or forward movement of Custer's battalion had halted and they were effectively pinned and without hope. The main part of this phase probably lasted another 30-40 minutes, and from that point to the final shots it was dealing with a few holdouts and dispatching wounded.
Fred is correct about simplicity and flow. All of that fancy crap of grand maneuver goes out the window upon contact. It then becomes a struggle for advantage, again followed by an exercise in armed brutality. The idea that platoons were sent here and there, that organizational control was maintained, that command posts were established, that communication was maintained is indeed a fairy tale.
The key element, so far unknown (at least unknown to me) is when, where, and by whom first contact was made. Once that is determined with 100% certitude than the other answers start falling in place. Do not look for the answers of what a rational man would do. Look instead at the idea of complete bedlam. The side which restores some semblance of order first is usually the winner.
When you look at people's views including mine and Fred's, try to determine if the theorist has a dog in the fight. If you determine that that person does have more than a casual interest, and they have laid themselves open by expounding on a model, look at how well that model is tied into events occuring, and in what order they occured. Determine how well the model stands up to critical examination. See if the modeler put all of his eggs in one basket. Look at the flexibility of the model. It is only in this way that you can determine what you think facts are and seperate them from fiction.
The Thompson story contains some truth and a lot of fiction. Most of that fiction revolves around his walk along the river.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 8, 2011 4:00:05 GMT -6
Thanks Guys, there is a bit doubt in my mind about what may have happened after Custer sent out his last Courier, after that the only evidence we have is from Curley and the Indians involved, now we have been through the Curley side of things before, that leaves the Indians, they both mention Troopers fighting in lines (I hope I have got that one right), but do not say where, they both mention about Troopers by the ford, so I imagine its Ford B, later we have the Indians saying that the suicide boys attack the Troopers, but where ?, was it Cemetery Hill, and then evidence suggests that some died on top of Last stand hill, and some broke out and were killed in Deep Ravine, is there also any evidence that Ford D was used by Custer or if he ever got that far ?, did the Indians say he attempted to cross or that he was even there ?, now that’s all we have to work on, as far as I can see, you can look at Cartridge cases and Grave Markers, but that is not enough to prove anything, because the Indians used captured Cavalry weapons and some Troopers may have been moved and buried in a different place, so it’s not a lot to go on really, but it’s a subject we all like to discuss, a few folks do seem to argue over what Officers did what and who let the side down etc., but I treat ever Officer on merit, if I wanted to have some beef about certain Officers I would be along the lines of Generals Howe and Gage at Bunker Hill causing over thousand casualties of Officers and men in 1775. Or Generals Buller and Warren at Spion Kop in 1900 when they had nearly 1.800 casualties and don’t even start me with General Haig in WW1. So at the end of the day, we are left with a Battle which will keep in our minds for ever, I can come up with a different scenario each day, that what is so enthralling about this singular and very compelling Battle, and I for one will love to keep reading your posts and throwing the odd post in myself. Regards Ian.
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Post by fred on Sept 8, 2011 5:15:06 GMT -6
The Curley business is another of the great enigmas of this thing. I reject almost everything Curley had to say about this battle because it is my opinion he was never where he claimed to be, abundant information from several sources that supporting that contention. Personally, I do not believe Curley even got as far as Weir Peaks, but headed back to Reno Creek as Custer began his move down Cedar Coulee. If I am correct, that eliminates virtually anything and everything Curley told us about the battle. We seem to have much better, much more accurate, and much better supported narratives from the Arikara scouts and from the other three Crows who accompanied the Custer column, certainly as far as Weir Peaks.
As for timing, that's a whole 'nother issue. Just remember, with timing you need to establish a beginning and an end-- all based on some semblance of reality-- and then try to fill in key points within those boundaries. Since we have so few definitively accurate times, we have to fit what we do have into our own established parameters. In my work, I use several keys: Wallace's noon (or thereabouts) divide crossing time; an approximate noon time (in a different time standard) for the beginning of the battle (based on about 40 or so narratives of participants); Benteen's arrival time on Reno Hill; and then a finishing time based only upon "subjective" testimonies.
I also reject the so-called "fatalistic" theory of the fighting and that changes or alters "times." I reject it, not out of hand, but because neither Indian narrative nor the battlefield archaeology support that theory.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 8, 2011 5:37:34 GMT -6
Hi Fred, going on the timing factor, Girard claimed he had a watch on his person when in the timber, and did any Officer on Reno hill also have a time piece, it would be a good Idea (but I bet some has beaten me to it) to try and match up any times that these men have got to use for the Custer fight. Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Sept 8, 2011 8:26:31 GMT -6
Ian: I think Fred will agree with me on this. Girard said he had a watch. He said he heard firing for the duration of two and a half hours. I don't doubt that he had the watch. What I do have doubts about is the idea that he accurately kept up with the parameters of time. I would think he would have had a lot more on his mind at the time than checking the watch to accurately record events. I know I would have were I in his rather dangerous set of circumstances.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 8, 2011 8:37:22 GMT -6
We seem to have much better, much more accurate, and much better supported narratives from the Arikara scouts and from the other three Crows who accompanied the Custer column, certainly as far as Weir Peaks. Best wishes, Fred. In my opinion, the most reliable information about Curley's movements appears in the Marquis pamphlet, "Curly, The Crow" in which Marquis relates that Red Star the Arikira and Goes Ahead the Crow both state that they saw Curley with Black Fox the Arikira as Custer watched Reno begin his advance toward the village. Following this, Curley, with Black Fox, heads toward present day Busby. Other than that, Curley's stories have more twists and turns than Ariadne's Maze. Hunk
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 8, 2011 8:38:56 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, did every Battalion Commander have a Officer with them to keep a journal and also be supplied with a pocket watch (I sound like Wayne here ''whats the time on my brand new pocket watch''), when Benteen got to Reno hill, there must of been some one among them with a watch, but just like you said, who's going to used it at a time like this, its a shame that we cant prove what time what happened, like when the Indians started to leave Reno (to attack Custer) when the first shots were heard on Reno hill and when they stopped firing, and also when Weir seen the Indians shooting at the ground, I wonder if the shots Girard heard could have come from Reno, didn't Girard also claim he heard Trumpets sounding from where Custer was, or is that just Herosrest blowing his. Ian.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 8, 2011 9:44:09 GMT -6
I don't see the significance of watches. Are they going to look at their watches and say,,,,Only one more hour till 5:00, quitting time and we can go get something to eat. Remember to get me up around 5:30 am, I don't want to miss the Indians showing up for work. Hey, what time is it? Isn't it about time for a coffee break? The only rel event times are.....Noon...about the time they crossed the divide 4:20....on Reno hill and they don't even agree with what took place that caused them to remember this exact time.
There is just no logical reason for anyone to be looking at their watch. What good could it do? The only things they needed to think about was their job and staying alive. About the only use for a watch would be its ability to be used as a compass with the aid of the sun.
If I remember correctly they did have someone who was to take down the time when they passed prominent land features and such. I think this was Wallace but I can't be sure.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 8, 2011 9:53:48 GMT -6
I am sure I read that it was Adj Cooks job to keep a record of the battle but he was killed and his data lost, I wonder how much Kellogg managed to write down before he was also killed, did anyone find his note book ?. Ian.
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Post by rosebud on Sept 8, 2011 10:27:45 GMT -6
I wonder how much Kellogg managed to write down before he was also killed, did anyone find his note book ?. Ian.
Note books and things of that nature have a special value to the Indian people. You might get a good idea of what they did with these things if you read one of these books
March of the Montana Column by Bradley To the Edge of Darkness by Willert.
Finding answers on your own is more rewarding and fun than having someone give you the answers. How do you know for sure they are giving you the right answer if you don't look for yourself?
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