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Post by benteen on Dec 28, 2018 13:21:05 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
Is that what brevet ranks were about. Say a Major was commanding a Battalion, but it called for a Colonel, would the Army give him the rank of brevet Colonel, or were brevets based on some kind of action.
PS...Thank you Steve and HR for helping with that RCOI, but I was unable to get info I needed. I will have to try to get the book
Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Dec 28, 2018 14:11:20 GMT -6
Most of the officers of the 7th who fought in the civil war held brevet ranks. These were temporary ranks but substantive ranks as long as the hostilities lasted. After the war the army was greatly reduced .This ment that officers wishing to remain in the forces returned to their prewar ranks. I think Custer was a brevet major general and he was given the permanent rank of Lt Col. Keogh was a Lt Col and was appointed to the permanent rank of captain .Same goes for Benteen and Weir.
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Post by benteen on Dec 28, 2018 14:35:59 GMT -6
Most of the officers of the 7th who fought in the civil war held brevet ranks. These were temporary ranks but substantive ranks as long as the hostilities lasted. After the war the army was greatly reduced .This ment that officers wishing to remain in the forces returned to their prewar ranks. I think Custer was a brevet major general and he was given the permanent rank of Lt Col. Keogh was a Lt Col and was appointed to the permanent rank of captain .Same goes for Benteen and Weir. Richard, Thanks for the response, but what I would like to know is what criteria did the Army use to award these brevets. Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Dec 28, 2018 18:14:23 GMT -6
Hi Dan In the civil war if you could raise a brigade you could appointed a brevet brigadier. Most of the officer corps serving at the outbreak of the civil war were appointed to senior brevet ranks and formed the backbone of a greatly expanded army. Brevets were also awarded for outstanding service . Probably you can research a great deal more on the internet. Best Richard
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 29, 2018 7:40:31 GMT -6
Wild, What evidence do you have that shows Keogh was commanding a battalion after Custer separated from Reno? Colt, Sir, I cant find my Bible (RCOI) but I posted once before that 2 Captains testified at the RCOI that they were present when Custer gave Battalion assignments they were as follows, Reno- M A G Assured Benteen- DHK AssuredKeogh-CIL Where & when did GAC make the assignment, can you show me?Yates- EF " " " " Now I am not going to say that this is proof positive, but unless someone can tell me why 2 Officers would make that up, I am of the belief that is what Custer did. Merry Christmas Be Well Dan By the way Dan, when was Tom Custer assigned to HQ, did he leave the divide there or with his company?
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 29, 2018 9:44:17 GMT -6
Exactly Tom.
Look on page 46/45 of Fred's book 'Strategy'
He even names the authors and experts who have differing views on this 'battalion' stuff. They can't even agree!
Two EMS [Kanipe & Sgt Hill] and two officers [Moylan & Edgerly] say that Keogh had a battalion, but only one of them actually was with the Custer battalion after the divide and he may have deserted.
Keogh did have a battalion earlier, but changes were made, he even lost one of his companies to guard the pack train.
All we can gather is that C Company could have been at the head of the column, as Thompson states that when his horse gave out, the whole command went past him, even the F Company detail passed him.
Yan.
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Post by wild on Dec 29, 2018 12:30:58 GMT -6
The 3 3 company battalions had a common command structure. Firsst company senior officer , second company captain, third company Lt. Keogh fits this pattern thus supporting the contention that he had a battalion. Yates was part of HQ arrangement.
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Post by benteen on Dec 29, 2018 12:44:10 GMT -6
Gentlemen,
I found my RCOI and the following is the testimony I was looking for,
Capt Myles Moylan....."During the morning of June 25th, battalion assignments were made. Major Reno, Capt Benteen, Capt Keogh and Capt Yates each had one. They consisted of three companies except Yates, which was two companies. Capt McDougall, absent with the pack train, accounted for the other company"
1st Lt W.S. Edgerly....."After moving over the divide between the LBH and the Rosebud, Gen Custer gave the command "Halt" I was close to him, riding with Capts Benteen and Weir.I saw Gen Custer and Adjutant Cook dismount and make the division into battalions as I suppose with pencil and paper, and then they were announced; that Major Reno would have "A" "G" "M"
Capt Benteen "K" "D" "H" and one battalion was given to Capt Keogh and one to Capt Yates and Capt McDougall with one company was to be the rear guard"
Now am I going to say that this leaves no doubt the Capt Keogh had command of a battalion, no. But I see no reason for these Officers to lie or make this up. I am not asking anyone to agree with me, but unless anyone can come up with some evidence or Indian or soldier testimony that Custer changed his mind and took the battalion out of Keoghs hand, then I believe that Capt Keogh did in fact have command of a battalion.
Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Dec 29, 2018 14:22:48 GMT -6
[quote source="/post/120949/thread" timestamp="1545692988" author=" benteen" ]By the way Dan, when was Tom Custer assigned to HQ, did he leave the divide there or with his company? [/p]
Regards, Tom
[/quote] Tom, Just a guess, but I believe that Tom was with George when they left the divide. If this is not true and he was with his company, then how can we explain how he died a mile away from them with Harrington leading a charge of "C" company which was Toms company. Be Well Dan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 29, 2018 20:42:46 GMT -6
Gentlemen, I found my RCOI and the following is the testimony I was looking for, Capt Myles Moylan....."During the morning of June 25th, battalion assignments were made. Major Reno, Capt Benteen, Capt Keogh and Capt Yates each had one. They consisted of three companies except Yates, which was two companies. Capt McDougall, absent with the pack train, accounted for the other company" Dan that appears to be similar to the letter that Moylan wrote. It is not consistent with the referenced Moylan's testimony in the online RCOI . If there was a meeting to divide it then everyone should have heard it. Reno doesn't testify to knowing of the division other than his own. No one testifies that other battalion commander heard it.
That statement of yours from a RCOI would be in direct conflict with the portion of Moylan's testimony at the RCOI that I posted. I think we must have different RCOIs what page do you have Moylan testifying to the division?
Moylan personally has no idea of the battalion division other than Reno's in which he served. We need to know who later told him what they knew or what they thought. I suspect it comes from an after battle look at the battlefield for I can find no officer stating they heard the division from Custer or Cooke.
Here is Moylan testimony at RCOI
Q. State if you knew at the time, or as it appeared to you afterward, what officers were placed in command of these different battalions, and how many there were?
A. I know nothing personally of it myself. I afterward ascertained that Maj. Reno had a battalion, Capt. Benteen had one, Capt. Keogh had one, and Capt. Yates had one. Each of these battalions I have named consisted of three companies, except Capt. Yates', which was two companies Capt. McDougall', being absent with the pack train, accounted for the other company.
Here is the link to the page from the RCOI that took the above quote from.
digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=goto&id=History.Reno&isize=M&submit=Go+to+page&page=1831st Lt W.S. Edgerly....."After moving over the divide between the LBH and the Rosebud, Gen Custer gave the command "Halt" I was close to him, riding with Capts Benteen and Weir.I saw Gen Custer and Adjutant Cook dismount and make the division into battalions as I suppose with pencil and paper, and then they were announced; that Major Reno would have "A" "G" "M" Capt Benteen "K" "D" "H" and one battalion was given to Capt Keogh and one to Capt Yates and Capt McDougall with one company was to be the rear guard" I think Edgerly division is exactly as he testifies. "as I suppose" Edgerly testifies that Reno was not present when Benteen was assigned his battalion. Edgerly does not state that he heard which companies that Yates and Keogh would have assigned to them. I doubt that they would announce Yates and Keogh have battalions without announcing which companies at the same time they are announced according to Edgerly. So Edgerly is the only one that were announced. When did this occur since Benteen didn't hear it and Edgerly left with Benteen. Reno wasn't there so why would anyone announce that. Moylan states he was told to report to Reno so he wasn't there for this announcement.
I think Edgerly has a recollection issue of announcement that only he attended. He may have really believed it occurred but he is the only one that states it occurred that way. He may be the one that later filled in the division to Moylan.
Now am I going to say that this leaves no doubt the Capt Keogh had command of a battalion, no. But I see no reason for these Officers to lie or make this up. I am not asking anyone to agree with me, but unless anyone can come up with some evidence or Indian or soldier testimony that Custer changed his mind and took the battalion out of Keoghs hand, then I believe that Capt Keogh did in fact have command of a battalion. Be Well Dan Dan
Which version of the RCOI of are you quoting from? This could be interesting if they differ this much.
As far as doubt it appears to me that at best Edgerly heard something that may have happened but offers no proof that the battalion commanders were present other than Benteen. For sure he states Reno was not there. No one even needs to be a liar since there is no evidence offered at the RCOI that the five companies with Custer were assigned to battalions even if written on paper. Would be great to have Cook's notebook but as most things there is a lot missing.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 29, 2018 21:53:17 GMT -6
Richard
Here is the duty of a major I am referring to from the 1865 Manual Custom of Service for Officer of the Army.
505. The command of small detachments, consisting of more than one company, and less than a regiment, is usually entrusted to him.
I believe that to be what we are calling a battalion even if temporary
You will not find that in the duties of a Captain the command of more than one company. The command of a company is as large as it gets. More to the point this manual uses these words: "the Captain or Lieutenant acting in that capacity".
So to be in command of a battalion you would be a major as in 505 above or acting in that capacity as used by example for a company commander.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Dec 30, 2018 7:16:22 GMT -6
Hi AZ Nice piece of research , really helps to clarify this issue....well done . But just to tidy it up a smigin. A detachment maybe a battalion but a battalion need not be a detachment.
Ok detachment is a unit detached beyond and independent of HQ . So it requires a senior field officer of major rank.
There were no detachments from the sphere of Custer's command during his operations along the LBH. All units, battalions or otherwise were acting under his command and were in communication with his HQ . Benteen and packs/escort had been ordered to close up and Reno was awaiting support. Keogh's final position would indicate that he was part of the main force. Ad hoc regimental forrmations are well within the paygrade of a captain. Custer could have formed at least 6 battalions. It is just not feasible to have spare majors hanging about awaiting the formation of a battalion. And just to emphasize Custer and Cooke gave serious consideration to the officer mix in the battalions Best Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 30, 2018 7:44:17 GMT -6
Hi AZ Nice piece of research , really helps to clarify this issue....well done . But just to tidy it up a smigin. A detachment maybe a battalion but a battalion need not be a detachment. Ok detachment is a unit detached beyond and independent of HQ . So it requires a senior field officer of major rank. There were no detachments from the sphere of Custer's command during his operations along the LBH. All units, battalions or otherwise were acting under his command and were in communication with his HQ . Benteen and packs/escort had been ordered to close up and Reno was awaiting support. Keogh's final position would indicate that he was part of the main force. Ad hoc regimental forrmations are well within the paygrade of a captain. Custer could have formed at least 6 battalions. It is just not feasible to have spare majors hanging about awaiting the formation of a battalion. And just to emphasize Custer and Cooke gave serious consideration to the officer mix in the battalions Best Richard Richard Thanks As far as Captains and battalions I think I was using the correct terminology of the time. For example a temporary battalion is commanded by a Major or a Captain acting in that capacity would seem to fit. As soon as you pull a Captain for battalion commander or other duties you might have company commanded by an Lt. acting in that capacity (captain). Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Dec 30, 2018 10:01:29 GMT -6
Hi AZ You established that a detachment greater than a company would require a major as officer commanding. The same standard of proof we need to establish that a nondetached battalion required a major acting or otherwise. Ad hoc majors would confuse seniority . Would pretend majors outrank senior captains? Benteen and McDougal never described themselves as majors. Benteen had two battalions , Reno had one .Was Benteen senior to Reno? When Benteen was given responsibility for the packs was McDougal relieved of his pretendship? Me thinks we need a bit more scholarship on this issue. Best Richard
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Post by benteen on Dec 30, 2018 15:12:09 GMT -6
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