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Post by quincannon on Jan 27, 2015 11:23:03 GMT -6
I disagree with DC more often than not, but he is the only man I would ever call upon to vet any book I would ever write. He frustrates and challenges my pleasant demeanor, but when he challenges period testimony and provides reasoned reasons, it is well to listen to him.
I recommended Donovan's Alamo book to Beth in preparation for our planned joint trip to the Holy of Holies. I did so because Donovan by far presents the best overall picture of the TR, and places things in their proper context. That in my mind redeems his agenda driven analysis a little.
I put Hutton in the same pig pen as Ambrose.
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Post by fred on Jan 27, 2015 11:55:36 GMT -6
I put Hutton in the same pig pen as Ambrose. That's a little too harsh, I think, Chuck. Hutton is a generalist in American history. He knows a little about a lot. When it comes to the LBH, he couldn't hold a candle to anyone on these boards. To me, that's almost tragic. At least for history. And he markets himself well. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 27, 2015 12:02:07 GMT -6
Hutton seems to have some moral fiber, where Ambrose was just a pig.
The pig pen though is the marketing, where you put yourself out as specific subject matter expert, when you are not, just to make a buck. What ever happened to the honest approach of saying I don't know or I am not sure. I suppose they do not want any of those folks on TV
I recommended four books to Beth, and here is why
LORD: No one tells the story better than he. Story telling. His first chapter dealing with Travis' letter is both prose and poetry.
HUFFINES AND ZABOLY: Huffines provides the period specific testimony of participants, what they said at the time, while Zaboly makes pictures out of those words, so you may place them in complete context.
DONOVAN: As previously stated sets the wider stage.
HANSEN: Provides all of the period testimony and documents under one cover. At the end of each he provides analysis of that testimony and those documents both pro and con, but never makes any decisions for you the reader.
LBH could not be better served, were it to have the artistry of a Zaboly combined with the documentation under one cover of a Hansen, and a companion volume containing the poetry and prose of a Lord.
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Post by Beth on Jan 27, 2015 16:33:14 GMT -6
This all goes back to one of those old tactical adages I am so fond of. Fond, because failure to heed them always come back to bite you in the butt. In pre battle planning, and the orchestration during battle you concentrate your efforts on what capability the enemy has, not what YOU think they will do. Pony herd, open flank, covered avenues of approach to that flank. all suggest that the enemy had the capability of assailing and turning that flank, attaining Reno's rear and cutting him off from retreat, and insuring that any follow on force has to fight through to relieve him. Thinking that the enemy was just forming a screen is a wish away also. What would make anyone think that if that enemy would gain the upper hand, they would stop. SOMEWHAT RELATED speaking to the same cherry picking of testimony we see here Last night Donovan and Hutton were on TV talking about the Alamo Donovan says that Travis drew the line, meat and drink of Texas myth and he buys into it. That story did not surface until 40 years after the event, a tale told twice removed from the original teller. Donovan bases his acceptance of the "fact" of this first told tale. on Mrs. Dickensen an illiterate in her advanced years, saying that Travis called the men together. Even the man who first published the story states that he added something "without which the story would seem incomplete". DC would be proud of me. Hutton states there were seven stories regarding David Crockett's demise. He believes the execution story told by de La Pena a man who would not know Crockett if he fell over him. Of those seven Francisco Ruiz, the Alcalde (Mayor) of San Antonio de Bexar, the only man, who knew Crockett personally, and who was charged with burying all of them says his body, weapon beside him, was found in a small lunette positioned outside the west wall, near the present Alamo Plaza entrance to River Walk. Since when to men being executed have access to their weapons and since when are they executed in their fighting positions. Double dose of DC's love for that one. FOR FRED Next time you see or talk to Donovan ask him to call me. Give him my phone number so I may introduce him to the original documents, that tarnish his Daughter's agenda. I wondered if you or anyone else saw that show and what the reaction would be. I am too new to the history of the Alamo to know much beyond the most obvious myths, but based on what they said about Custer's last stand I knew there was information lacking. On the whole it was a better than average show for a viewer who has nearly no interest in either subject. Shoots down the biggest myths but doesn't go much further under the surface.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 27, 2015 17:05:11 GMT -6
I did watch it for the Alamo and Custer, and nearly choked on my lamb chop at Donovan and Hutton.
I did like the old silent movies though.
There was another movie about San Houston that stared Richard Dix back in the late 1930's, which showed Alamo scenes. David Crockett was clad in his Fess Parker look alike costume, Travis in uniform, blah, blah, blah. What struck me though were the icons and paintings adorning the chapel walls, the chapel pristine, spotless. I guess that was for the Catholics in the audience. The truth is that the chapel was never finished. It was never used as a church. It was used as a grave yard. It had no roof or distinctive hump (That was courtesy of the US Army post 1847). It was abandoned sixty years before the siege, and it was a complete wreck. I saw the movie long before I got into the Alamo, and I was so disappointed to find out the truth.
Imagine my equal shock when I found out Davy was David. He hated Davy and smacked the crap out of more than one who called him that.You can always judge the bona fides of a bullwhacker by how they address Congressman David Crockett. He didn't like Colonel all that much either.
I think they were a little harsh with Bowie. Sterling Hayden would have smacked Hutton in the mouth, and Anna Maria Alberghetti would have sung off key. Bowie was a product of his time, and I have no doubt that he had some adventures on the dark side, BUT, not one damned charge was ever leveled against him while he lived, and nothing has ever been proven. Lot's of people did not like him though. They could bad mouth him, but there was not a one of them that would stand up to him or that were at the Alamo with him.
Like I told you privately Beth, the myths, legends, and fabrications that surround this event make Custer's little episode seem like a little girl's pretend tea party. It is much better documented though.
The bottom line to all of this though is that when you endeavor discover the truth, the story the truth tells is far better than the legend and myth. That goes for the Alamo, Little Big Horn, and Humpty Dumpty falling off that frigging wall.
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Post by Beth on Jan 27, 2015 17:07:52 GMT -6
Hutton seems to have some moral fiber, where Ambrose was just a pig. The pig pen though is the marketing, where you put yourself out as specific subject matter expert, when you are not, just to make a buck. What ever happened to the honest approach of saying I don't know or I am not sure. I suppose they do not want any of those folks on TV I recommended four books to Beth, and here is why LORD: No one tells the story better than he. Story telling. His first chapter dealing with Travis' letter is both prose and poetry. HUFFINES AND ZABOLY: Huffines provides the period specific testimony of participants, what they said at the time, while Zaboly makes pictures out of those words, so you may place them in complete context. DONOVAN: As previously stated sets the wider stage. HANSEN: Provides all of the period testimony and documents under one cover. At the end of each he provides analysis of that testimony and those documents both pro and con, but never makes any decisions for you the reader. LBH could not be better served, were it to have the artistry of a Zaboly combined with the documentation under one cover of a Hansen, and a companion volume containing the poetry and prose of a Lord. I am reading the Lord book right now and as with a Night to Remember, he has a beautiful prosy style I like. It's like the Donovan book. I liked his Custer book as a read but I find in very perhaps you would call it novalized. It's a light fun read but don't use it for facts, more of an atmosphere book and full of general information. Basically like I did with LBH, I'll read a few lighter books and then find the part of the battle that I want to explore more thoroughly first--and go from there. History is an vast and interesting path to explore. Donavan kind of reminds me though of a line I once read in an English mystery--I think it might have been an Inspector Lynley. One of the characters who was precieved as being "smart' revealed that her secret was to be well read on some rather obsure points so that you can talk about those points with confidence but very general about other facts. Donavan can talk confidently about Custer's haircut but he is very general about other things. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Jan 27, 2015 17:22:47 GMT -6
Looks like Will lost power. He has been on all afternoon and nothing from him.
There are not to many AWC graduates that are slow readers, so I dismissed that possibility after the first ten minutes.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 27, 2015 17:43:59 GMT -6
Depends where he is. Philly, Jersey shore, and NYC struck out. But from Montauk on up they took a butt kicking.
Regards. Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jan 27, 2015 17:48:22 GMT -6
Bean Town or thereabouts
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Jan 27, 2015 20:01:20 GMT -6
I reread Lord's account of the Alamo almost yearly. He is wonderful writer. His Day of Infamy is also superb. One of my earliest reads on WWII. Regrettably he never wrote a book about LBH. This all goes back to one of those old tactical adages I am so fond of. Fond, because failure to heed them always come back to bite you in the butt. In pre battle planning, and the orchestration during battle you concentrate your efforts on what capability the enemy has, not what YOU think they will do. Pony herd, open flank, covered avenues of approach to that flank. all suggest that the enemy had the capability of assailing and turning that flank, attaining Reno's rear and cutting him off from retreat, and insuring that any follow on force has to fight through to relieve him. Thinking that the enemy was just forming a screen is a wish away also. What would make anyone think that if that enemy would gain the upper hand, they would stop. SOMEWHAT RELATED speaking to the same cherry picking of testimony we see here Last night Donovan and Hutton were on TV talking about the Alamo Donovan says that Travis drew the line, meat and drink of Texas myth and he buys into it. That story did not surface until 40 years after the event, a tale told twice removed from the original teller. Donovan bases his acceptance of the "fact" of this first told tale. on Mrs. Dickensen an illiterate in her advanced years, saying that Travis called the men together. Even the man who first published the story states that he added something "without which the story would seem incomplete". DC would be proud of me. Hutton states there were seven stories regarding David Crockett's demise. He believes the execution story told by de La Pena a man who would not know Crockett if he fell over him. Of those seven Francisco Ruiz, the Alcalde (Mayor) of San Antonio de Bexar, the only man, who knew Crockett personally, and who was charged with burying all of them says his body, weapon beside him, was found in a small lunette positioned outside the west wall, near the present Alamo Plaza entrance to River Walk. Since when to men being executed have access to their weapons and since when are they executed in their fighting positions. Double dose of DC's love for that one. FOR FRED Next time you see or talk to Donovan ask him to call me. Give him my phone number so I may introduce him to the original documents, that tarnish his Daughter's agenda. I wondered if you or anyone else saw that show and what the reaction would be. I am too new to the history of the Alamo to know much beyond the most obvious myths, but based on what they said about Custer's last stand I knew there was information lacking. On the whole it was a better than average show for a viewer who has nearly no interest in either subject. Shoots down the biggest myths but doesn't go much further under the surface.
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Post by mac on Jan 27, 2015 20:12:37 GMT -6
I always enjoy Montrose's analyses. In this case we have Custer expecting about 1500 warriors, I think there is no historical arguement about this expected number. He sends Reno and 124 men (from memory but near enough) into the valley to begin the assault on these 1500 warriors. Can he really be serious in expecting them to be any kind of long term threat to the village? I wonder if for whatever reason (lets not forget zero intelligence over enemy disposition..wow) he thinks he can go over the bluffs and quickly drop in behind the village. If this was the case then 3411 might have been an "oh my goodness" moment for Custer. He may realise that Reno is effectively cooked and sends for Benteen to protect the packs and join him so that he can pull a rabbit out of his hat in the north to save the day. This is why he suddenly decides to do his homework and drops into reccon mode. The events at 3411 become quite different to me when viewed in this light. Cheers
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Post by Beth on Jan 27, 2015 20:26:14 GMT -6
Can anyone direct me to pictures of what one sees standing on 3411? I know I've seen some from 'somewhere'
Beth
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Post by quincannon on Jan 27, 2015 20:26:25 GMT -6
Shaw: You have excellent taste. "Dawn's Early Light" is masterful as well. Day of Infamy was first published in Life Magazine. I remember having read it saving my allowance and take the street car down to Brentano's Book Store of F Street DC to purchase it.
Your comments about the Titanic are spot on. Just today a friend of mine in the UK published an in progress photo of Titanic in its final moments, sinking by the bow. If you interested it is on the Titanic thread on DOCKSIDE a ship modeling website. It starts off with a picture of her sister, and under the title sinking ships you can see the in progress photo. Jeff Stevensen is a master modeler, and if you choose to go there keep in mind the model is only nine inches long.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 27, 2015 20:32:41 GMT -6
Beth: Fred has some, and if I recall correctly he has them from both 3411 looking into the valley, and from the valley looking up at 3411, or at least where 3411 is.
My recollection is that you had a clear view of the valley past Ford B, but the area close to the river obscured your view to the point where you could not see the full extent of the encampment nor the ford itself. It has been near ten years but I think that accurate.
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Post by Beth on Jan 27, 2015 20:37:34 GMT -6
One of my earliest memories was watching "A Night to Remember" with my mom. It was an afternoon movie on TV and I was probably 4. The movie scared the living daylights out of me especially when mom told me it was based on something that really happened. I have read about the Titanic since then. My first experience with the Internet was being part of the Titanic usenet group. until Titanic movie came out and it went from an information board to I love Jack and Rose board overnight.
Beth
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