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Post by revmike on Jun 20, 2011 20:40:31 GMT -6
It is interesting to see people question Custer's skills. Here is an example. While the Indians certainly knew there were soldiers somewhere in the valley, Custer's belief that the Indians did not know how close the force was proved to be correct. When Reno hit's the village, the inhabitants are taken by surprise. Almost every Native witness has stated that when they realized they were under attack, they had to go to their lodges and get their weapons. They were also surprised by Custer and the companies from the East.
Most likely, the Native leaders mis-estimated the 7th's location, in part, due to Custer's night move on the 24th.
The difference in surprise or not is the difference between 2000 armed, prepared warriors whose families are relatively safe, and 2000 unarmed, unprepared warriors whose families are running pell mell for their lives through the village.
-Rev
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 20, 2011 22:23:30 GMT -6
1. "It is interesting to see people question Custer's skills."
Is it? Who, for example? Where? With what standing to do so?
2. "Here is an example. While the Indians certainly knew there were soldiers somewhere in the valley...."
What valley are you referencing? There were no soldiers in the LBH valley till Reno crossed over, so why do you think the Indians thought that? If they thought that, there was certainly no preparation.
3. "...Custer's belief that the Indians did not know how close the force was proved to be correct." To the contrary. He was afraid that the bread box incident - which was nothing in the reality, though he could not assume that - would have informed the Indians exactly where they were and heading, and the incidents of Indians at dawn having seen them would fortify that opinion. It's why he abandoned the rest day. Why do you feel Custer had the opposite belief?
Of course, "the Indians" had zero organization for the numbers they had because they had no experience with it, and there was no sure way to know that acquired info was taken to people in authority, none of whom - including Sitting Bull - had authority to order mass movement without group consultation at minimum anyway. But this wasn't understood, and people assume they were just like us with a clear hierarchy of command and people who could give orders. They had no real way to disperse info; the Army did, but thought it unsporting to use it, apparently.
4. "When Reno hit's the village, the inhabitants are taken by surprise. Almost every Native witness has stated that when they realized they were under attack, they had to go to their lodges and get their weapons. They were also surprised by Custer and the companies from the East."
First, while some army scouts may have hit an outlying tipi, Reno never hit the village per se and this because hundreds poured out to discourage that and attend the pony herd. That happened early enough for Reno to send two messengers informing his commander after he noisily crossed over. It's also not like it was a 400 yard run in traffic to get to their lodges; most men were sleeping off the dance orgy of the night before and hanging about.
5. "Most likely, the Native leaders mis-estimated the 7th's location, in part, due to Custer's night move on the 24th."
Most likely they had only the vaguest inclination soldiers were that close because they allowed the 7th to travel in column down Ash Creek, an excellent defensive area to ambush them with some effort, none of which appeared to occur to the loosely defined leaders. What we call chiefs and leaders were more accurately described as Motivational Speakers and good warriors one on one.
Also, just one sober guy placed on high ground overlooking Ash Creek with the brains to sight, ride, and warn people prepared to receive interesting information would have given them hours of notice. Info came in from the lodges with the dead from the Rosebud on Ash Creek, and informed some but not others. Not many. Not enough. The camp as a whole was clueless what the hell was happening from beginning to end.
6. "The difference in surprise or not is the difference between 2000 armed, prepared warriors whose families are relatively safe, and 2000 unarmed, unprepared warriors whose families are running pell mell for their lives through the village."
The difference between what and what? But, yes, if the Indians had even minimal organization, a clumsy, noisy cavalry regiment would never have gotten near them and no civvies would have been killed, as happened. Two thousand prepped warriors attacking from cover on high ground from two sides and hitting the 7th in column would have proven a more enjoyable day than what happened.
The least incompetent side that day won. Barely. Custer made reasonable assumptions given his decision template and that day most of them were wrong, but that's not damning of his skills in general. He was leading a regiment but comported himself as a 2nd lieutenant in that he was always in the front. Good and bad attends that, and today it was all bad.
The LBH is a good example of the theory that you can lose all the battles and yet win the war. The Indians had to keep moving and not acquire preparation material for the winter whether they won or lost.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 20, 2011 22:33:31 GMT -6
DC: You are in rare form tonight. The new kid just got his welcome to the NFL.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 22, 2011 6:07:21 GMT -6
The form doesn't change that much. It is those who deviate from what is known and how they try to defend an unrealistic position. If the Indians believed their numbers were sufficient to handle anything that came close to them and therefore let their guard the 7th didn't do much to change their opinion.
AZ Ranger
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 29, 2011 13:03:25 GMT -6
Was it the same bunch of Indians that stopped George Crooks force on the Rosebud on June the 17th ?, if so they must have been buoyed after the success of that battle, and therefor let there guard down, is it true that after this battle Crook was forced to stop and this delayed him at the BLBH. Regards Ian.
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Post by El Crab on Jun 29, 2011 20:00:40 GMT -6
Regardless of how strong and confident the Indians were, they'd never let soldiers get that close to their village if they knew they were in the area. Even after stopping Crook cold.
There was no ambush, there was no letting the Seventh get close enough to send slugs into the village. Maybe they were a bit lax in their monitoring of the area around their camp, but it wasn't due to overconfidence due to stopping Crook at the Rosebud. It was something else.
Custer got close because he wasn't detected. Whether you believe it was due to Custer's brilliance or the Indians' lack of scouting, or a mix of both, it happened. And was unlike how they dealt with Crook. The moment they discovered his column, they formed up a large group of warriors, rode overnight and attacked his camp.
I'm just not sure the Indians, lacking a central command as DC points out, really had the ability to consistently maintain anything resembling pickets. Chiefs were not absolute rulers. They were followed if "their people" thought it was a good idea, in battle and in life. I'd guess some tribes, like the Uncpapas and the Cheyennes, were more vigilant, due to their propensity for bringing up the front and the rear of larger camps. But then again, maybe not. Because, again, we don't have an absolute command structure.
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Post by fred on Jun 29, 2011 20:28:27 GMT -6
Regardless of how strong and confident the Indians were, they'd never let soldiers get that close to their village if they knew they were in the area. Totally agree. Yes... sheer sloppiness. They pulled in their scouts after they saw Gibbon moving down the Yellowstone, away from where they were heading. Scouts still tailed Crook, but none went after Gibbon. Despite their bravado about "knowing" troops, i. e., Custer, was in the vicinity, it was just that, bravado. They had no clue. Absolutely spot-on correct. The closest they would come to this was amongst their warrior societies and that was not always on a regular basis, nor were they in any way organized for it. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 30, 2011 9:39:13 GMT -6
I think Custer was just lucky that the Indians didn't notice his command earlier, didn't Custer think that the Indians had received news that his command was near and he made a night march to try and get to them before they could scarper, he must of thought that the Indians were not prepared to fight, and they would dismantle the village and move. Regards Ian.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 8, 2011 8:58:01 GMT -6
I think Custer was just lucky that the Indians didn't notice his command earlier, didn't Custer think that the Indians had received news that his command was near and he made a night march to try and get to them before they could scarper, he must of thought that the Indians were not prepared to fight, and they would dismantle the village and move. Regards Ian. Ian, you have your timings wrong here. It was not until the morning of June 25th that it was believed the command had been spotted by the Indians. Also, the whole army command believed from the start that the Indians would not stand and fight. See the various messages exchanged between Sheridan, Sherman and Terry for example. Hunk
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 8, 2011 9:39:51 GMT -6
Sorry Hunk you are right, it was the next day when some packs fell into Indians hads that Custer thought that the Indians would be warned. Ian.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 8, 2011 16:57:29 GMT -6
Sorry Hunk you are right, it was the next day when some packs fell into Indians hads that Custer thought that the Indians would be warned. Ian. Apology unnecessary Ian, but I do recommend that you do a little homework before you rush to post as the end result can often be embarrassing for you. Sincerely, Hunk
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 9, 2011 6:37:19 GMT -6
I think I have all ready achieved that, Hunk. I should not have been posting recently, we are in the process of buying a house, and move away from the family from hell next door to us. Ian.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 9, 2011 15:51:53 GMT -6
I think I have all ready achieved that, Hunk. I should not have been posting recently, we are in the process of buying a house, and move away from the family from hell next door to us. Ian. Good for you and sorry for any offense I may have given. Yes, moving house does tend to distract the mind and posting in the midst of that is a lottery, not to mention a likely cause of friction with ones beloved. Family from hell? I didn't think my sister's mob were that bad! Enjoy your new house. Sincerely, Hunk
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Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 10, 2011 5:14:41 GMT -6
Good on yer Hunk, Just watched England struggle against Argentina in the Rugby Union World Cup, I am a Rugby League Man My Self, but if its England you have to do your bit. Ian.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Sept 10, 2011 7:32:59 GMT -6
Good on yer Hunk, Just watched England struggle against Argentina in the Rugby Union World Cup, I am a Rugby League Man My Self, but if its England you have to do your bit. Ian. Wigan Warriors? Leeds Rhinos? Or? As my mother was Welsh you can guess where my allegiance lies. Not only that, we sing better than anyone else. ;D Hunk
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