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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 19, 2017 7:49:53 GMT -6
Is there anyone who has been to the Crow's Nest who can verify that Custerhad a line of sight to the area Benteen scouted? I am from Missouri (the Show Me State) on this one. Best, David David You can not see anything but the tops of a few ridges you have to climb to the top of each see what is in the drainage. Then some ridges turn so you have move along the ridge to see further. A short while back Fred and Michael Donahue were discussing things on my Facebook page. Michael commented that he had rode in the Benteen area and was surprised that there was so few places that you can look into Reno Creek. I don't think Benteen ever saw the LBH valley on his ride. Gibson thought he did but later was not sure. Here is picture taken from the location that Gibson marked on a map. It shows SFRC and Reno Creek but not LBH valley. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 19, 2017 17:28:50 GMT -6
There is one myth which sould be challanged and that is that onther cavalry regiment could have succeeded where the 7th failed. Watch this space.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 19, 2017 17:33:57 GMT -6
Returning to the Myth of the "valley hunting. Some comparative distances If Benteen had favoured a 45degree oblique direction it would have taken him towards Ford A actually rejoining the trail at the junction SFRC. A distance of 5.4 miles. The trail [Custer route] to this point was 5.8 miles. Benteens route was 7.2 miles. There was absolutely no military reason for Benteen's Route/direction of 7.2 miles. He seperated his command an extra unnecessary 2 miles from the main column. Do these two miles constitute dawling ? Are these the two miles which doomed Custer? Thus Benteen's rubbishing of legit orders and the myth of Valley hunting ? Richard Richard How do you figure an oblique of 45 degrees at the stopping place just below the divide would be in line with ford A? If you think you can keep up with someone on a horse in Reno Valley by parallel them down Reno Creek you must not have seen Reno Creek and the drainages coming into it. It would serve no purpose to draw a line from the divide to ford and have Benteen ride that direction. I think if you actually saw the dog leg that Custer had to make while following Reno Creek it might be clearer for you. Myself I think it you draw a straight line to the place where Gibson marked a map that would be as close as you would get to Benteen's route. I think Roger Darling's work is spot on and should be read by any serious student of the Benteen scout to the left. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 20, 2017 0:54:18 GMT -6
Hi AZ Using the map published by your good self and taking the outward bound leg as the direction indicted by Custer it is clear that Custer will never see Benteen again if he continues in that direction. Spectulating that the area into which he has sent Benteen was seen from the Crow's nest and that his scouts would have drawn his attention to anything suspicious in that area which they did not there is no reason ,military or otherwise to detach Benteen from the column with no possibility of finding him again nevermind recalling him again. There was an incident between Custer and Benteen re his orders and Benteen admits eventually disobeying them ....circumstantial evidence of a malfunction. A direction favouring Ford A satisfies some military logic ; covers the drainage system on Custer's flank ,deploys rather than detaches Benteen allowing for his recall. And there is no indication from Martins instructions that there will be difficulty finding him in fact it is expected that not only will Martin find him but also be able to return . If Benteen had continued in the direction as per your map Martin's roundtrip could have been close to 20 mies...totally unrealistic. Granted the cross country route towards the LBH valley is very rough but it cuts the dogleg and is roughly half a mile shorter to SFRC than the route taken by Custer. Benten's arrival 10 minutes earlier at Reno Hill would have changed the course of the battle. A suitable case for study? Cheer's Richard
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 20, 2017 5:07:54 GMT -6
Hi AZ Using the map published by your good self and taking the outward bound leg as the direction indicted by Custer it is clear that Custer will never see Benteen again if he continues in that direction. Spectulating that the area into which he has sent Benteen was seen from the Crow's nest and that his scouts would have drawn his attention to anything suspicious in that area which they did not there is no reason ,military or otherwise to detach Benteen from the column with no possibility of finding him again nevermind recalling him again. There was an incident between Custer and Benteen re his orders and Benteen admits eventually disobeying them ....circumstantial evidence of a malfunction. A direction favouring Ford A satisfies some military logic ; covers the drainage system on Custer's flank ,deploys rather than detaches Benteen allowing for his recall. And there is no indication from Martins instructions that there will be difficulty finding him in fact it is expected that not only will Martin find him but also be able to return . If Benteen had continued in the direction as per your map Martin's roundtrip could have been close to 20 mies...totally unrealistic. Granted the cross country route towards the LBH valley is very rough but it cuts the dogleg and is roughly half a mile shorter to SFRC than the route taken by Custer. Benten's arrival 10 minutes earlier at Reno Hill would have changed the course of the battle. A suitable case for study? Cheer's Richard Wild,
Interesting thoughts near the end of your post. I do not know if 10minutes would have made a difference, 20 maybe. Several things could have been different: 1) Benteen may have entered the valley helping to pin down the southern warriors longer, but jeopardizing the pack train. 2) He may have passed Reno Hill and joined Custer, still to late to completely save that command and may have killed his command as well.
Two things militate against your theory. One, while, SFRC is closer, as the crow flies, it will still take longer to get there due to the terrain getting there. Two, the note still becomes a sticking point as Benteen still needs to sheperd the pack train.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 20, 2017 5:40:48 GMT -6
Hi AZ Using the map published by your good self and taking the outward bound leg as the direction indicted by Custer it is clear that Custer will never see Benteen again if he continues in that direction. Spectulating that the area into which he has sent Benteen was seen from the Crow's nest and that his scouts would have drawn his attention to anything suspicious in that area which they did not there is no reason ,military or otherwise to detach Benteen from the column with no possibility of finding him again nevermind recalling him again. There was an incident between Custer and Benteen re his orders and Benteen admits eventually disobeying them ....circumstantial evidence of a malfunction. A direction favouring Ford A satisfies some military logic ; covers the drainage system on Custer's flank ,deploys rather than detaches Benteen allowing for his recall. And there is no indication from Martins instructions that there will be difficulty finding him in fact it is expected that not only will Martin find him but also be able to return . If Benteen had continued in the direction as per your map Martin's roundtrip could have been close to 20 mies...totally unrealistic. Granted the cross country route towards the LBH valley is very rough but it cuts the dogleg and is roughly half a mile shorter to SFRC than the route taken by Custer. Benten's arrival 10 minutes earlier at Reno Hill would have changed the course of the battle. A suitable case for study? Cheer's Richard Hi Richard What makes you think Benteen would have gone to Reno Hill if he was 10 minutes earlier instead of toward all the fighting in the valley? Again both Tom and myself have been to the divide area and it is impossible to see into the drainages and it looks like there is fewer terrain features because the taller ones block the view. You say my map but it is also Fred's map and Darling's map and Clair's map and anyone that draws line from Benteen's departure to Gibson's observation point and then returns to Reno Creek via noname. It's even HRs map till Gibson view point. HR just has Benteen continuing till he hits the river near the RR sign for Benteen. As far as disobeying orders Benteen states he was told he return in his testimony in the RCOI. What I think happened is the ridgeline between SFRC and Noname forced him to make a decision to go off the line that he was ordered to follow. he chose to return toward Reno Creek instead of climbing higher to get around the ridgeline. I would bet he was not a happy camper at that point after traveling that far. You would not be able to see the drainages to clear them if a route is drawn from the divide separation to ford A. Your line would have Benteen crossing the drainages at thier steepest. Benteen would have arrived after the pack train and the destruction of Custer and most likely Reno if he rode on a line toward Ford A. Since all accounts have them being pushed back to the right what feature on your line would cause that? We are suppose to be discussing myths not creating them. Where have you seen anyone stating that the route given Benteen would be a direct line toward Ford A? Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 20, 2017 8:54:23 GMT -6
Hi AZ If Custer had indicated a direction other than towards the LBH he had taken leave of his senses . I'm allowing Custer some intelligence. I would take Benteen's word for there being very little chance of there being Indians lodged in this delta. If there had been a village as you and Montrose seem to think I imagine you could smell them a mile away and there would be the usual camp detritus[ plastic bags ,sweet wrappers, pizza boxes] scattered for some distance leading to such a site. I suggest that Benteen was out there just to be sure to be sure that Custer did not miss something of significance off to his left flank.
I mention your map just as the source I'm using.
If Benteen got there 10 minutes earlier he would have had to make a decision. And slippy tit making a decision would have been awesome.
I don't think Benteen can be accused of dawdling if you use speed over the ground.The only place he can be got is that God awful direction he took himself off on. Later Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 20, 2017 11:22:44 GMT -6
Hi AZ If Custer had indicated a direction other than towards the LBH he had taken leave of his senses . I'm allowing Custer some intelligence. I would take Benteen's word for there being very little chance of there being Indians lodged in this delta. If there had been a village as you and Montrose seem to think I imagine you could smell them a mile away and there would be the usual camp detritus[ plastic bags ,sweet wrappers, pizza boxes] scattered for some distance leading to such a site. I suggest that Benteen was out there just to be sure to be sure that Custer did not miss something of significance off to his left flank. I mention your map just as the source I'm using. If Benteen got there 10 minutes earlier he would have had to make a decision. And slippy tit making a decision would have been awesome. I don't think Benteen can be accused of dawdling if you use speed over the ground.The only place he can be got is that God awful direction he took himself off on. Later Cheers Hi Richard
Not sure of your point. Custer may have not been convinced that all camps were north of the junction of the LBH and Reno Creek. Custer would be an idiot to have Benteen go to Ford A in parallel of the command and close with Custer at Ford A. Two things make sense. First would be being upstream in SFRC from information received from Herendeen and second even without that he would want Benteen to be south of the junction of Reno Creek and LBH.
They were camped on SFRC when they went after Crook. Where do you think those Indians came from that they chased down Reno Creek to Ford A?
If they were camped on SFRC Benteen would be able to stop them from fleeing up SFRC and that is exactly what I think Custer was attempting to do. The camp area is a known site and its just a matter if someone is camp there. Since Custer decided to do no long range scouting he had to make sure SFRC was scouted and if something found pitch into them. Just how many campsites do you think there could have been along the route Benteen was sent.
Isn't that part of the problem? The campsites need space for Indians, grazing for horses, and water for all. If you don't know the area then you can't judge where they might be. Herendeen had been in a fight with those same Indians at the divide and in SFRC and he would be familiar with potential camp sites for large numbers of Indians.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 21, 2017 10:18:59 GMT -6
Hi AZ Deserted camp sites were suggesting possibly 400 lodges and if the Indians had reached even half their full strenght and were camped where you suggest then they would have been spotted from the Crows Nest[ maybe at a distance of 8 miles ] where Custer and his scouts had spent considerable time viewing the terrain. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 21, 2017 10:33:03 GMT -6
Hi AZ Deserted camp sites were suggesting possibly 400 lodges and if the Indians had reached even half their full strenght and were camped where you suggest then they would have been spotted from the Crows Nest[ maybe at a distance of 8 miles ] where Custer and his scouts had spent considerable time viewing the terrain. Cheers Richard Hi Richard It's hard to debate with someone that has not been there trying to tell me what I could see when I was there. On Google it is approximately 7 miles in a straight line but terrain prevents seeing into any of the SFRC area. They did not have drones or even Custer's air balloons. The horses were visible at the Big Village because they were on bluffs west of the river. The Big Village tipis were not visible due to terrain features and not distance. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 21, 2017 13:30:56 GMT -6
HiAZ
It's hard to debate with someone that has not been there trying to tell me what I could see when I was there Was there a village of 4000 souls going about their daily domestics when you were there ? ; dust , smoke from camp fires , kids riding ponies hither and thider, women going to the river ,traffic coming and going , blood stock , noise. Is it possible that the NAs scouts , landsmen who knew this environment could not tell that there were 4000 in the vicinity ? Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 22, 2017 4:56:45 GMT -6
HiAZ It's hard to debate with someone that has not been there trying to tell me what I could see when I was thereWas there a village of 4000 souls going about their daily domestics when you were there ? ; dust , smoke from camp fires , kids riding ponies hither and thider, women going to the river ,traffic coming and going , blood stock , noise. Is it possible that the NAs scouts , landsmen who knew this environment could not tell that there were 4000 in the vicinity ? Cheers Richard At which location? There are thousands of people in the valley during the time of the battle reenactment. Do you want the visitation numbers for the battlefields, Garryowen, total number of Crows living in the associated LBH valley, or the traffic on the interstate? If you want a head count I think there is a lot of persons in the LBH valley when we there. The traffic on the highway alone would be substantial and the trucks are much larger than horses.
I drove my truck up SFRC where lots of people live the dust cloud was tremendous as it is for everyone driving on those dirt roads so dust is in the air there all of the time.
If you're talking about dust in the valley it would depend on agricultural activity for present day activities.
What noise do you think they could hear from the divide from any location?
Not sure what your point is?
Custer didn't believe what the scouts were telling him. What the scouts saw were the horse herds identified as a contrasting in color and changing shape due to the movement of the horses. They surmised that meant a corresponding number of Indians associated with the size of the horse herd . None of the observations suggested they say tipis or even human beings. We know that there were Indians in Reno Creek .
What doesn't change is that you cannot see into SFRC from the Crow's Nest and the terrain is different. There are no grazing benchlands like those in the LBH valley. SFRC is not formed by a river.
Finally Custer ordered Benteen to pitch into anything he found and send a message if he found something. If the direction was to parallel along side Custer and join at Ford A then Custer's scouts and anyone that could hear would know that Benteen engaged from the sounds of gunfire nearby. It was Benteen that suggested the regiment keep together. The scouts suggested there was more Indians than they could handle associated with the horse herd.
So why did Custer send a 3 company battalion to pitch into something if the found something to pitch into. Since Custer thought Reno's 3 company battalion was sufficient for an obvious number of Indians in the thousands what did expect was the potential for Benteen's 3 companies to run into?
Again I know what I can see and have been there. I have better optics than the scouts or soldiers and have spent years looking for persons and animals. You can't see the houses in SFRC from the divide.
I think you are attempting to start a myth that Benteen went the wrong way. The route you suggest is impossible to do with 3 companies in a timely fashion. So are you blaming Gibson and the 6 troopers for leading Benteen in the wrong direction?
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 22, 2017 7:52:48 GMT -6
Hi AZ My point is that if there was a village at the junction of RC and RCSF and if that village was the same one later to reside on the LBH then it would be seen from the Crow's nest as it was on the LBH. Stands to reason it would be seen, as it was only half the distance as the LBH camp. It is entry level Eagle Scout merit badge award to spot evidence of 4000 homo sapiens and impedimenta at 8 miles. So for what earthly reason was Benteen sent out into the roughs? Now I'm having a change of heart about Benteen and not for the first time as you were so good to remind us. I think Custer's oblique order [as described by Benteen]was not of this world. I think Lewis Carrol would not entertain it, so cretinous and confusing was it. However in Benteen , Custer had a subordinate only too willing to be confused. The pair of them were the perfect team to produce the perfect storm. Custer's order was matched only by Benteen's execution of it. His direction of departure and return conformed to no known military tactic but rather to the lie of the land.He took the easy way out and the easy way back . Never in the annals of military history was a more useless journey undertanke than Benteen's 4 miles down NNC. Custer left in his wake confusion and there was no better man than Benteen to assist. I will not go over the well trodden ground of what our Heros did next but only to nominate Reno as man of the match. In the midst of this confusion he saved his battalion . He was the one who gazed into the jaws of death and survived. It was he who ordered the command to vacate Weir point and fortify Reno Hill and it was his scout that saved Terry's blushes. Reno was a good soldier. Hurrah Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 22, 2017 9:16:21 GMT -6
Hi Richard
I gave you my opinion. Custer was concerned with satellite and scattered villages and it change once he saw the Big Village. He would know from Herendeen that SFRC was travel corridor and a camp site. If there was a satellite camp in SFRC they could flee up the drainage when Custer moved down Reno Creek. So by sending Benteen at the angle he sent him he could head them off and pitch into them.
I don't understand how you can say a horse in the wide open spaces of SFRC near Reno Creek are visible from the divide. That has to be because you have not been there and understand the terrain differences.
If Custer wanted Benteen to only flank Reno after reaching Ford A then he certainly would have kept Benteen with the regiment and then gave orders for Benteen to move to the bluffs where the horses were seen and Reno to move down the valley where they expect to find Indians.
I am sorry that you can't see what you are attempting to tell us. A simple drive up Reno Creek road would show the terrain differences between where Custer and Reno traveled and you suggested route that you think Benteen should have taken result in him arriving at Ford A. He could do it but I bet it would be behind the rear guard when he arrived there.
The ridges are at a greater elevation when they join Reno Creek.
Maybe an example. If you stand on one side of the Grand Canyon and with good binoculars you can see a horse on the other side. If you hike to the bottom and have decreased the distance in half you still can not see the horse even with telescope. Its the terrain difference not the distance. The scouts did not see horses they saw lots of moving horses that were a different color than the ground. They knew what caused that visual effect.
So come on over and we can drive around or ride if you like. A few beers would be in order.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 22, 2017 9:22:45 GMT -6
Here is picture where we came out of Noname to Reno Creek. You are suggesting that Benteen would be riding up and down those ridges.
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