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Post by edavids on Mar 14, 2017 15:56:44 GMT -6
The NA's likely inflicted more casualties than they took which made the Reno Hill battle a tactical NA victory. The cavalry occupied some fairly useless ground which perhaps makes this a strategic cavalry victory. Overall the LBH was the beginning of the end for the NA way of life as within a matter of months most were on the reservations.The fact that the command survived gives a victory of sorts to the garrison . It is how that victory was achieved that is of interest to the professional and militaria geek. In my opinion 400 carbines should have seen off the Indians I think there was a book written by an officer of Terry's command entitled The Rescue of Custer's command. If someone thought that they had to be rescued well....... Best Wishes Richard
I would agree wirh the 400 carbines if the NA were to attack in a massed phalanx or the Great Plains version of a Banzai Charge. NAs fighting from behind cover was a different matter. The troopers had difficulty hitting them and the NAs likely figured a charge was not worrh the casualties. Stalemate seems an appropriate term here. Best, David
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Post by wild on Mar 14, 2017 15:59:36 GMT -6
Wild me bucko let it go. Brother David, montrose, horse and AZ have all explained, politely I might add, how far off the beam you are flying. Choosing one's ditch is always an option available to each of us and you are not choosing wisely on this subject. Need to find another topic to focus on and bring to the moot court table. I am sure there are many other topics that are of interest which would allow you to bring your contrasting perception for discussion.
Well first off I think "me bucko"is disparaging.You would not address Montrose or Fred in this manner. I think lining a number of posters up to support your "let it go" is bullying. Suggesting that I interest myself in other subjects I find patronising. You have attempted similar on the other thread. And this without contributing a single word in response to my "Valley hunting myth" which I offered for discussion. You will note that this thread has lain dormant for two years and I was attempting to breath some life into it. I don't want to upset you .You have much to offer but to introduce negativity for the purpose of belittling a poster's efforts is counter productive.
As to the ridiculous charge that I have endeavored to bully you into silence it is a out and out falsehood. There are two parties to bullying . Your post above is intimidation add to it the following Man you must drop this obsession and move on with life and again you are too smart to continue drifting further and further away from reality.
Now to defuse the situation allow me to withdraw any charge of bullying and just say that I'm bringing to your attention my perception re your use of stratagems that are just a smigen off side. I wish you well Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 14, 2017 16:05:48 GMT -6
Agreed Dave .I was thinking more of supressing the enemy fire plus making it costly for very little gain . Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 15, 2017 6:31:13 GMT -6
A Myth is that there was only one way to flank or move to the rear of the Big Village.
Another Myth is the Indians always ran.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 16, 2017 11:01:31 GMT -6
<The NA's likely inflicted more casualties than they took which made the Reno Hill battle a tactical NA victory>
Any time an Indigenous Force can stop or "hole up" a Western Army then it's a victory for the Natives!
The Battle of the Rosebud has been considered a "tie" with neither side claiming victory. However it was a "tactical" victory for the Indians who stopped Crook in his tracks and forced out of the summer campaign of 1876.
Could the warriors have stormed Reno Hill and wiped out the command? Probably, but with heavy casualties. The warriors knew the soldiers weren't going anywhere, they didn't threaten the village, in fact sat still for two days while warriors tried to pick them off. The warriors did "test" the soldiers by infiltrating very close to them but there was enough Command Control to thwart them . . . but not enough if the warriors needed to over run the hill.
The Indians didn't have the win or lose mentality of Western Military . . . they did what they had to . . . protect the village and stop the soldiers from killing their women and children, then kept them holed up on a hill knowing they families were safe. If the Reno Hill Command had decided on a charge of the village I am sure the warriors would have risen up and wiped them out just as they did Custer's command.
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Post by wild on Mar 16, 2017 11:53:29 GMT -6
Agreed crzhrs . Just in passing I think half the garrison were facing the wrong way and were unemployed.
As a general rule an attacking force should be 3 times as strong as the defending force. I doubt there were 1200 firearms pinning down the defenders. Nor were horse holders required . This was a fire fight between amatures and professionals [led]. On Battle Ridge the cognosenti have a company charging to clear Indians from their front . Was a covered mounted demonstration against the Indians possible by the Reno defenders? What we saw on Reno Hill was a passive defence. Nothing to write home about. Cheers Richard
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 16, 2017 12:55:02 GMT -6
Wild: I doubt any of the soldiers on Reno Hill were up to any kind of offensive charge, mounted demonstration or any other kind of aggressive and/or offensive maneuver. Reno had suffered heavy casualties and Reno himself seemed to have lost any control of his command. Benteen shows up and after witnessing hordes of warriors chasing soldiers up a hill feels he does not have adequate manpower to offer any kind of offensive movement.
Weir takes off with a gung-ho attitude and once Indians see him turns tail and runs away without any discipline fall back. Godfrey had sense enough to send out skirmishers to delay the warriors onslaught.
Once on the hill everyone was demoralized, pessimistic, wondering why Custer abandoned them like he did Elliot at the Washita and were only capable of digging in and doing their best to keep the warriors from over-running the hilltop.
Who the armatures and the pros were could be determined by who left the field in an orderly and disciplined manner . . . and it "weren't" the Soldiers!
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Post by wild on Mar 16, 2017 14:35:18 GMT -6
crzhrs Yes I would go along with much of that.
Once on the hill everyone was demoralized, pessimistic, This observation is interesting. I have often posted that Benteen joined his command to a defeat. And as you have pointed out the demoralisation took hold. I know that whatever he did he would end up with Reno as a passenger and all aggression would evaporate. It is a consideration though and other armies in later times used battle police to deal with defeated troops. An interesting subject for another time and another thread. Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 16, 2017 16:47:34 GMT -6
Once on the hill everyone was demoralized, pessimistic, wondering why Custer abandoned them like he did Elliot at the Washita and were only capable of digging in and doing their best to keep the warriors from over-running the hilltop. In actual fact the last thing a leader would do in such circumstances is to allow the troops to wallow in pessimism and demoralisation. He would kick butt. He would get the entire command volley firing or give an order for 10 rounds rapid fire.Doesn't matter if they hit anything they are at least returning fire. My fire team which Col William pooh-poohed would be excellent ...someway of hitting back instead of just lying there and taking it.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 17, 2017 7:04:34 GMT -6
The myth that Custer had a plan and it was known that he was going to move to flank and it was known that Reno would fix all the warriors in the big village is one of the most supported of myths. Even Reno's testimony is used to support the myth. Without this myth Reno is left to his own decision making and it leaves a breakout as one of the best available decisions. That a breakout against overwhelming numbers of enemy forces has a high casualty rate should be a no brainer. Being destroyed in place has a higher casualty rate.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Mar 17, 2017 8:33:18 GMT -6
Hi AZ Without this myth Reno is left to his own decision making and it leaves a breakout as one of the best available decisions. It was the best decision made that day. The difference between Reno's decision and Benteen's is that Reno progressed his orders as far as possible. Benteen made no attempt. Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 17, 2017 10:19:50 GMT -6
Hi AZ Without this myth Reno is left to his own decision making and it leaves a breakout as one of the best available decisions.It was the best decision made that day. The difference between Reno's decision and Benteen's is that Reno progressed his orders as far as possible. Benteen made no attempt. Cheers Richard Hi Richard Benteen progressed as far as Reno did and it was lots of Indians willing to fight that destroyed Custer and prevented movement between Custer and Reno/Benteen. Regards Steve
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 17, 2017 10:40:58 GMT -6
The many comments of survivors of the Reno Hill Battle were made years aftere the fact. I doubt there were many there who were saying "We are doomed!" What enlisted men were actually saying will probably never be known whether good or bad about what had happened and whether they were left hanging out on a limb by Custer. Officers were more circumspective.
In fact, it was Benteen who took over command of the Hill by encouraging the men to stay strong, led some offensive charges against warriors infiltrating the Hill and walked around in an exposed position to show the men he was going to get them through this.
Whether Benteen went as far as his orders went is open to discussion since then. Benteen arrives to find a demoralize command, who it was, whether the entire command or part of a command wasn't determined until Benteen arrived. Reno was the senior officer and told Benteen what was going on (unbeknownst to Benteen who recieved a vague, if not cryptic message to return, to who and where was not stated in the written message) Benteen returned, reported to Reno who stated he was ordered to charge fleeing Indians, Custer was off somewhere but was told Reno would be supported.
Benteen was damned if he did or if he didn't. A competent officer doesn't go charging off willy-nilly without knowing what's going on. Benteen found out what was going on and decided the best option was to help with Reno's wounded, get the command organized and back to a military force. The last thing Benteen and/or Reno would think is that Custer would be routed and/or wiped out by Indians who were supposed to be running away.
The debacle at the LBH has one reason for it to have happened . . . it starts at the top and with the remaining causes filtering down to Benteen/Reno who were left wondering where Custer was, what he was doing, what the plan was and what the survivors should do to ensure the safety of wounded, the pack train and their own companies.
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Post by wild on Mar 17, 2017 15:09:33 GMT -6
A competent officer doesn't go charging off willy-nilly without knowing what's going on. Benteen found out what was going on and decided the best option was to help with Reno's wounded, get the command organized and back to a military force. If Benteen achieved anything on first meeting Reno then it was totally undone by the leaderless unorganised Weir Point shambles. Benteen's offical report to Terry ends at the point at which he hands over a fully functioning battalion to a shell shocked and defeated Reno. This action is generally accepted by the majority here but nowhere else on this green earth would such an action be countenanced.
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Post by bosshawg on Mar 17, 2017 16:01:36 GMT -6
I am relatively new to this board and not nearly as well read or as knowldgeable as most posters. Since this is a "myth" thread, it seems to me that a huge myth is that Reno was sent to attack the big village. In Darling's General Custer's Final Hours he makes it clear that Reno was sent to attack the lone tepee band of about sixty Indians who were "on the jump" and fleeing at about 2 1/2 miles away. He was to charge them wherever they went and bring them to battle. If you are Reno and are sent after sixty Indians and suddenly come upon a village of 1,900 tepees, what do you do? If Darling is correct, at the point of his being dispatched after that band, neither Reno nor Custer actually knew of the location of the big village. It had to be a big surprise to Reno.
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