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Post by dave on May 27, 2015 14:06:51 GMT -6
I have often wondered how many of the Sioux and Cheyenne saw the US Troops often enough to be able to ID individual soldiers? Did all the whites look the same to them? I know they would have seen whites on the Reservations but were there troops posted there? Just curious. Jaguar welcome to discussion. Regards Dave
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jaguar
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by jaguar on May 27, 2015 14:32:41 GMT -6
Finally someone who associates Nov. 22 for something other than JFK's assassination. My primary interest is Custer's Civil War experience. Having read a few books about LBH I am here to learn the fine points of the critical questions always posed in connection with this battle. Now if the chest wound was instantly fatal why the wound to the temple which seems purposefull. If I am re-plowing old ground please let me know the thread to go to. Thanks
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Post by Beth on May 27, 2015 14:37:31 GMT -6
Beth: Maybe it was the trademark or absence thereof, but the most likely reason was that they would not know Custer if they fell over him. There was none of them invited to tea in his parlor at Fort Lincoln. None of these guys were attired like you see in a Currier and Ives period print. Their clothes were dirty and trail worn, supplemented heavily, with more durable civilian wear, if that could be afforded. Those leaders that wore marks of rank in combat qualify for the Ding Dong of the year award. Look at that scruffy bunch atop Weir Point in the painting that Ian has posted several times here. If Custer wore anything that would mark him as an easily identifiable leader at a distance of one hundred meters and beyond I would be shocked. I don't recall but is there anything in the WCB story indicating that goofy blue and red divisional guidon was present in this story of his? That was like a red neon sign, saying shoot me. You mean Custer didn't borrow a page from Horatio Nelson's book and make himself highly visible? I do kind of chuckle when I see the lithographs of Custer's Last Stand that were used to sell beer and liver pills at the turn of the century. Everyone is always so clean and well groomed and in this one the NA are even standing patiently in line waiting to be killed by Custer. And of course as you mentioned the guidon.
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Post by Beth on May 27, 2015 14:52:28 GMT -6
Finally someone who associates Nov. 22 for something other than JFK's assassination. My primary interest is Custer's Civil War experience. Having read a few books about LBH I am here to learn the fine points of the critical questions always posed in connection with this battle. Now if the chest wound was instantly fatal why the wound to the temple which seems purposefull. If I am re-plowing old ground please let me know the thread to go to. Thanks There were a lot of bullets going every which way that afternoon. I don't think anyone was allotted one just fatal wound. I do know that there is a train of discussion that the head wound was a coupe de grace or suicide shot but who knows and would it really make a difference? Your question about Custer's sword has led me on a couple hours of very interesting journey reading about swords and White Oak Swamp. Thanks Beth
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Post by wild on Mar 12, 2017 10:37:00 GMT -6
The purpose of this dispatch is to show that Benteen's suggested "valley hunting" was a myth.
Custer's column is advancing towards the LBH valley via Reno creek . This creek will make a junction with the LBH River . The village could be either North or South of this junction ....he is not sure and to cover this he deploys Benteen to the left or South of the column ,directing him towards the bluffs of the LBH Valley, mission to seek attack and inform. Benteen describes his deployment as a left oblique 45 degrees off the column direction. He in fact departs the column at closer to 70 degrees Southwards not as he should in a Westerly direction. After 3 miles approx and a look at the SFRC he turns down no name creek and returns to the trail on Reno Creek. If Benteen had continued his erroneous Southerly direction he would have reached the foothills of the Wolf Mountains and Martin would never have found him. No instructions were given to Martin as to Benteens location . No instructions were needed because Custer would have assumed his orders had been followed and Benteen would have been close to the RC trail.
By turning down No Name Creek Benteen limited the damage his wayward navagation had caused but his opening up of a gap of 5 miles from the main column and his rubbishing of Custer's orders triggers the myth of" Valley Hunting."
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Post by montrose on Mar 12, 2017 12:02:49 GMT -6
Richard,
I know you are trying to troll, but this post is arrant nonsense.
The Benteen scout mission was against a template village located at the junction of Reno Creek and South Fork Reno Creek.
It had NOTHING to do with any enemy in the LBH valley, as has been discussed hundreds of times in last ten years.
So your post is a classic red herring, designed to get folks to move into cloud cuckoo land.
If you have a serious post, happy to respond.
Respectfully,
William
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Post by wild on Mar 12, 2017 13:28:59 GMT -6
Hi William Well it took me enough time to put a troll to gether. The maps were checked , orders checked , logic applied . I'v allowed Custer some intelligence . The only bluffs distinctive enough to use for direction are the ones somewhat distant on the LBH. If we accept Benteen's outward direction as per orders then he will vanish right off the sand table out of any possibility of comunicating with Custer . Benteen's outward direction is total lunacy . Why does Custer imagine Martin will find him ? Why does he even send for him? He's 10 miles away in the Wolf mountains. And don't forget there is the putting down of Benteen by Custer. Is it beyond the bounds of possibility, human nature being what it is that Benteen is playing silly buggers. And if Benteen is off in the bad lands what is Keogh doing waiting for him? And if it was Benteen who detached himself rather than Custer [who I'm suggesting deployed him]then the whole dividing of the command would have to be looked at again. Cheers Richard
The Benteen scout mission was against a template village located at the junction of Reno Creek and South Fork Reno Cree That is 5 miles from where he released Benteen and not much more to the Crow's nest . Would his scouts not have told him this? Would his Scouts not have passed this point before he released Benteen? and having passed this point and not finding a village would he not have recalled Benteen? In fact he was still sending messangers after Benteen. Am I missing something here ....village near the lone Tepee?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 12, 2017 16:35:41 GMT -6
Richard, I know you are trying to troll, but this post is arrant nonsense. The Benteen scout mission was against a template village located at the junction of Reno Creek and South Fork Reno Creek. It had NOTHING to do with any enemy in the LBH valley, as has been discussed hundreds of times in last ten years. So your post is a classic red herring, designed to get folks to move into cloud cuckoo land. If you have a serious post, happy to respond. Respectfully, William You got that right William. Herendeen had fought with those same Indians at Lodge Grass and SFRC. He knew it was a travel corridor. The direction Benteen was sent put him about 5 miles up SFRC. From the Gibson viewpoint you can not go into SFRC you could go higher but why? Gibson had already cleared it. There are a couple of more drainages that would need crossing before reaching the river so Benteen did not clear them but the known travel corridor and camp place was cleared. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 13, 2017 4:20:57 GMT -6
The myth of Benteen's defence of Reno Hill
Without the arrival of Terry the reno hill garrison was toast. This is due to Benteen and Reno's failure to adequately deploy their fire power to win the fire fight . The one advantage the 7th had was their ability to concentrate and direct their fire power. Instead B&R deployed and used their units as skirmishers. In a static fire fight the carbine was superior having a hard hitting round and outdistancing most of the weaponry the Indians had. A fire team, company strenght could have been organised of sharpshooters and vets . These are the shooters not the terrified recruits . With control and direction serious fire could have been returned on individual Indian shooters. Every round of incoming gets 40 accurately aimed rounds back. The fire team at a rough guess could be supplied with 500 rounds each. Instead the troopers just lay there and took a beating. This was where the real defeat happened .This was a professionally led body of regular troops fighting a defensive action and losing. The performance of the 7ths officer corps was so bad that just surviving has assumed the status of an Alamo , a Bastogne fit to rank among the Thermopylaes . It is a Myth.
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Post by edavids on Mar 13, 2017 7:29:00 GMT -6
The myth of Benteen's defence of Reno Hill Without the arrival of Terry the reno hill garrison was toast. This is due to Benteen and Reno's failure to adequately deploy their fire power to win the fire fight . The one advantage the 7th had was their ability to concentrate and direct their fire power. Instead B&R deployed and used their units as skirmishers. In a static fire fight the carbine was superior having a hard hitting round and outdistancing most of the weaponry the Indians had. A fire team, company strenght could have been organised of sharpshooters and vets . These are the shooters not the terrified recruits . With control and direction serious fire could have been returned on individual Indian shooters. Every round of incoming gets 40 accurately aimed rounds back. The fire team at a rough guess could be supplied with 500 rounds each. Instead the troopers just lay there and took a beating. This was where the real defeat happened .This was a professionally led body of regular troops fighting a defensive action and losing. The performance of the 7ths officer corps was so bad that just surviving has assumed the status of an Alamo , a Bastogne fit to rank among the Thermopylaes . It is a Myth.
The N/As bugged out the evening of 6/26. Terry arrived the morning of 6/27. How were Reno and Benteen "toast" without Terry's arrival till AFTER the NAs left. Methinks perhaps you should discard this line of reasoning. Best, David
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Post by wild on Mar 13, 2017 8:05:39 GMT -6
Hi EDave I think I'm safe in saying the Indians knew of Terry's approach. To remain they would be fighting on two fronts. Cheers Richard
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 13, 2017 10:27:58 GMT -6
There are numerous accounts of warriors wanting to take on the advancing soldiers (Terry). In fact some of Terry's scouts reported "soldiers" marching around which turned out to be warriors dressed in captured soldiers' uniforms trying to lure Terry into a trap.
It was only the elders who convinced the warriors it would be best to leave. Sitting Bull was said to have convinced the warriors they had done enough . . . leave the rest to tell the soldiers not to mess with the Sioux! (paraphrase)
As far as the Reno Hill Situation . . . the command had suffered more casualties after Reno's retreat, there was lack of water, no one knew where Custer was (did he abandoned them like he did Elliott?) They were in no position to advance or inflict any kind of damage to the Indians/Village.
The command was, however, dug in and the warriors knew if they wanted to storm the soldiers they would suffer casualties. They felt the village was safe, the soldiers were not going anywhere and all they had to do was wait them out.
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Post by wild on Mar 13, 2017 10:42:58 GMT -6
CRZHRS Agreed spot on. Cheers Richard
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Post by edavids on Mar 13, 2017 11:56:19 GMT -6
Hi EDave I think I'm safe in saying the Indians knew of Terry's approach. To remain they would be fighting on two fronts. Cheers Richard You are getting tunnel vision, Richard. Are you sure the NAs hadn't used up the areas limited resources? 7-10,000 villagers and 20-25,000 horses will accomplish that. The warriors had also fought 2 major battles within 8 days using up a tremendous amount of their limited gun ammo even with replenishment from the 7th Cavalry's fallen. They had fought Crook to a virtual standoff and wiped out nearly half of Custer's regiment. Bugging out because of Terry's approach looks like a minor thought when considered with other factors. Just my opinion of course. Best, David
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Post by wild on Mar 13, 2017 13:00:47 GMT -6
Hi EDave I'm sorry don't follow, are we in disagreement?
My opinion is that the 7th had lost the fire fight on Reno hill losing nigh on the equivalent of a company in casualities. They were besieged ,surrounded with an unsecured supply of water. Without Terry they were in dire straits. The reason for the Indians leaving was other than any action taken by the garrison. They were aware of Terry and needed a day to clear the neigbourhood. Cheers Richard
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