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Markers
Feb 2, 2011 15:18:17 GMT -6
Post by bc on Feb 2, 2011 15:18:17 GMT -6
Fred, I've seen it on another board, not a proboard, that using the back button causes a post to repost itself. It's a pain to have to go forward and look for the thread again but I don't know of any other option. As a test, I will post this and use the back button to see what happens.
bc
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Markers
Feb 2, 2011 15:51:30 GMT -6
Post by fred on Feb 2, 2011 15:51:30 GMT -6
Britt,
This delay, then the flag thing and everything else that follows-- or doesn't follow-- is usually with the longer posts only. I will hit "post reply" now and this will go right up there.
How are you doing in Kansas? How's the weather? My youngest daughter lives in Naperville outside of Chicago.... I can just imagine.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Markers
Feb 2, 2011 15:57:17 GMT -6
Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 2, 2011 15:57:17 GMT -6
I had this issue in early January and remarked on it. I thought it had something to do with taking too long in Quick Reply, but no, and then I ended up, when it happened, copying the post into a new one and deleting the old, which made everything show up. No clue. Went away, and I now wonder if it is something to do with Win 7 or the browsers (I use Firefox) that updates I've installed have fixed and maybe you have not?
That said.....
Several accounts put Reed and Boston further down the hill, certainly outside the fence. Those markers heading towards Keogh were swept within the fence, out of place, and we know about ten bodies, including Custers, were shoved down the hill from where the mass grave is now. Then, about 20% of the others are bogus anyway, belonging on Reno Hill. There's a lot of empty space even so within the fence, and you wonder how that perimeter was decided upon, and if there was a visual need to fluff it up some, because it's hard to make an argument that this marker deserves being within the fence but this one four feet further does not.
After all that time, they let people sit on the dead's barrow and they fence notional markers of first graves by a fence that encloses disproportionate space to accomodate the markers of graves that weren't there originally anyway. Truly strange.
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Markers
Feb 2, 2011 16:36:28 GMT -6
Post by fred on Feb 2, 2011 16:36:28 GMT -6
Several accounts put Reed and Boston further down the hill, certainly outside the fence. Those markers heading towards Keogh were swept within the fence, out of place, and we know about ten bodies, including Custers, were shoved down the hill from where the mass grave is now. Then, about 20% of the others are bogus anyway, belonging on Reno Hill. There's a lot of empty space even so within the fence, and you wonder how that perimeter was decided upon, and if there was a visual need to fluff it up some, because it's hard to make an argument that this marker deserves being within the fence but this one four feet further does not. Yes... this is a really good point. As you know, the LSH markers were enclosed within that fence to prevent vandalism. That said, you are correct about Boston and Autie Reed and that is as good a place to start as any. That is a great idea; the Pohanka/Brust/Barnard book does a good job on that so let me at it and let's see what we can do. I am heading out to meet some friends for dinner... despite what will prove to be rather icy roads... so I probably won't be able to work on this for a day or two, but this will be a great start. Maybe I can even figure out some distances and measurements, then compare them to what we have there today. Great idea, DC! Best wishes, Fred.
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Markers
Feb 2, 2011 20:17:32 GMT -6
Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 2, 2011 20:17:32 GMT -6
The four foot fence prevents vandalism? About as much as a sign forbidding it. If so, why is the actual mass grave and monument so accessible? I think whoever said the stones reflect an artistic intent rather than accuracy was more right than he knew. Might have been Camp.
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Post by fred on Feb 3, 2011 7:42:40 GMT -6
The four foot fence prevents vandalism? About as much as a sign forbidding it. If so, why is the actual mass grave and monument so accessible? You got it, but it was a different age back then; vandals today are more sophisticated. Then again, so is the NPS. Best wishes, Fred.
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Markers
Feb 4, 2011 12:16:00 GMT -6
Post by bc on Feb 4, 2011 12:16:00 GMT -6
Britt, How are you doing in Kansas? How's the weather? My youngest daughter lives in Naperville outside of Chicago.... I can just imagine. Best wishes, Fred. Just a few inches of snow but with the blizzard, it either drifted a couple feet deep or blew clean. It drifted in my driveway. I was reading some of Godfrey's early writings in Graham. He has Calhoun being killed just a little ways from LSH towards Keogh. Early maps and him also refer to Calhoun hill as being Crittendon Hill. When he was discussing his 86 meeting with Gall, he mentions the Crittendon monument. Apparently there was a monument over there as well. I wonder how this all changed with Calhoun's body location and the name of Crittendon Hill? bc
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Post by keithpatton on Feb 2, 2020 7:28:55 GMT -6
With respect to the 45-55 and 45-70 loads... Externally they were no different. They fired the same 400+ grain slug. In black powder rifles, barrel residence time of the bullet allows the slow burning powder to fully combust and to develop maximum pressure and velocity. Firing a 45-70 from a carbine would blow unburnt powder out the barrel along with the slug and would probably increase fowling. Black powder shooting of muzzle loaders teaches you this when you are trying to find the "best" load for your gun and projectile combination. I have many times blown massive quantities of unburnt powder out the end of a barrel when I went beyond the capacity of the best barrel length and bullet residence time. Using a 70 grain charge in the carbine was just a waste of powder.
As a long time hunter I was always amused by the claims that you had to hunt geese with a long barrel on your shot gun. This presumably came from the old black powder days where a longer barrel improved range and power even in shotguns. Today the faster burning improved military rifle powders (IMR) used in sporting arms allows development max pressure quickly and allows the use of shorter barrels.
Of course longer barrels allowed better accuracy due to longer sight planes. The Carbine was rated out to 1100 yards if you can believe the graduations on the sights. The drop out to 200 yards would be impressive but that does not preclude accurate shooting. With the leaf sights on the gun, the Army expected a trooper to be able to hit a six by six foot target at 200 yards. That would be volley fire accuracy. Smaller groupings would be possible. I have a muzzle loader capable of three inch groups at 100 yards throwing a 430 grain bullet similar to a minie ball.
The size of a man on a horse target is about eight feet long by seven feet tall. At even 200 yards that would be a big target.
On the Reno skirmish line troopers were shooting at mounted targets at several hundred yards. Reports were that non combatants were killed in the village which if you measure from Garryowen to the site of the southern most Lakota village you are talking a distance of 1400 yards. Now with the ballistic arc of the carbine it would be possible to reach out that far only if the soldiers were aiming high at say a mounted targets over shooting them and inadvertently lobing bullets into the tepees of the southern camp.
Another note on the cartridge loads. Some 45-55 had cardboard tubes inserted in them to take up the additional space of the reduced load. I am not sure all of them did. There was some excitement on on of the digs when a case was found with "paper" in it. I presume they thought it might be one of the cases driven into the grave location markers containing a name. Not so it was one of the cardboard inserts. Xrays of other cases found the same paper inserts.
Regardless of the powder load the soft lead bullets would not effect the rifling of the bore. The hardness differential between the steel barrel and the soft lead wound make that impossible. Kind of like trying to abrade your frying pan with a sponge. Would lead fouling fill in the rifling if not cleaned? Absolutely. That is why you use a powder solvent and a stiff copper cleaning brush slightly larger than the bore diameter.
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Post by keithpatton on Feb 2, 2020 7:48:25 GMT -6
Scott referred to the marker numbers but didn't provide a usable map one of the few faults of the book.
According to later digs the markers were placed on brick and mortar bases. No base, the marker had been moved. According to Scott some of the markers I believe in the Calhoun road loop had been moved closer to the road to improve the driving visitor's viewing experience. Sad as it casts a pall over the validity of interpretations based on marker positions. In the book Drawing Battle Lines, one interviewee who grew up around the park claims six markers were moved from the vicinity of the park visitor's center. The author disputes and rejects the claim without really giving ample justification for doing so.
So obviously the location of the markers and their validity is open to question. In another instance a Benteen soldier who participated in the burials and visited the battlefield claims there were no makers where he was positive he viewed bodies. The Army who was the administrator of the park refused to place additional markers in those area.
So a question. Based on Scotts digs at makers validating or invalidating their positions, has the Park Service made any attempt correct errors? I believe in one of his books he claims they relocated several markers when they located the correct locations by finding their original bases. Yet I also recall reading that they refused removing all the erroneous marker pairs since it "constituted part of the history of the battlefield."
That to me is irresponsible. Why perpetuate myths about the battle and continue to mislead the public and researchers who rely on correct placement of the markers? To my mind every marker on the field should be subject to excavation to determine if there are human remains related to it. Sure you'd have to do a fairly wide area around each marker but it would put to bed once and for all the question about whether the marker should be there or not. Fifty erroneous markers were placed and other body locations were not marked at all. So how can decent interpretations of movements or existence of "skirmish lines" based on marker placement be considered valid. Three or four erroneous markers amongst four valid ones and suddenly you have a skirmish line.
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Post by keithpatton on Feb 2, 2020 9:32:04 GMT -6
With respect to how they located the right locations that they did. One source cited "rank" vegetation as one criteria. "Rank" vegetation that has grown abundantly without being cut or grazed for some time, and as a result has become tall, tussocky. I am assuming this was taken as a sign of "fertilization of the otherwise infertile soil. That along with the well written about "depressions" which were scraped alongside the bodies during the first burial attempt which were later taken mistakenly as the locations of two burials.
For those who might not know why this is, when a grave is buried the body takes up a volume that disappears when it later decomposes. Old cemeteries show this to an even more marked degree where the casket rots and collapses leaving an even greater depression in front of the headstone. When I lived in Biloxi I used to ride through a cemetery and notices a two foot Iguana coming out of a burrow alongside a headstone. I assumed he was living in the casket of the departed.
I still find it mind boggling comical that the fifty markers meant for the Reno Dead were just placed on the Custer field. How is that for US Army work? Apparently no one was given precise instructions of the mission and no one told the grunts who actually had to carry it out.
How many wagons were in the contingent? I assume they carried the markers AND bricks and mortar to construct the bases.
From the geological perspective, I saw the images of the grave marker excavations and was amazed at how much soil had accrued over the years from the time the markers were placed to the present day. The markers were much taller than you would think from how much is sticking out of the ground today. Which begs the question, were the brick and mortar bases simply set on the ground surface or was an slight excavation done a footer so to speak which was lined with the brick and the marker's placed?
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Markers
Feb 3, 2020 12:41:20 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Feb 3, 2020 12:41:20 GMT -6
Keith,
So many questions, so few answers. Your rifle, powder, and target requirements are excellent. The rifles would perform, to a great degree of the requirements, however these troopers were to a great degree ill trained. They had limited practice at best. Few understood where to adjust the point of aim, when shooting up or down hill. They probably could not walk their shots onto a target and many had not learned to ride and shoot at the same time, even with the Colt.
The markers, in many ways are a cluster puck. You seem to be familiar with the battlefield. You have not accounted for or alluded to the markers that were moved from the location of the visitor center, the area around the Trading Post across US212, Kellogg's marker moved from the area along the old entrance(nearer Ford D), or the one near Custer Creek. You might just as well enjoy what is there. Much can be garnered from Indian accounts, sector positions, and archeology. While the NA accounts may seem piecemeal, they do tell us what they saw. Camp's leading of witnesses and some poor translations have hurt, but all and we have a decent interpretation of the action. We even have room for variations in our own interpretations.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 4, 2020 11:33:34 GMT -6
With respect to the 45-55 and 45-70 loads... Externally they were no different. They fired the same 400+ grain slug. In black powder rifles, barrel residence time of the bullet allows the slow burning powder to fully combust and to develop maximum pressure and velocity. Firing a 45-70 from a carbine would blow unburnt powder out the barrel along with the slug and would probably increase fowling. Black powder shooting of muzzle loaders teaches you this when you are trying to find the "best" load for your gun and projectile combination. I have many times blown massive quantities of unburnt powder out the end of a barrel when I went beyond the capacity of the best barrel length and bullet residence time. Using a 70 grain charge in the carbine was just a waste of powder. As a long time hunter I was always amused by the claims that you had to hunt geese with a long barrel on your shot gun. This presumably came from the old black powder days where a longer barrel improved range and power even in shotguns. Today the faster burning improved military rifle powders (IMR) used in sporting arms allows development max pressure quickly and allows the use of shorter barrels. Of course longer barrels allowed better accuracy due to longer sight planes. The Carbine was rated out to 1100 yards if you can believe the graduations on the sights. The drop out to 200 yards would be impressive but that does not preclude accurate shooting. With the leaf sights on the gun, the Army expected a trooper to be able to hit a six by six foot target at 200 yards. That would be volley fire accuracy. Smaller groupings would be possible. I have a muzzle loader capable of three inch groups at 100 yards throwing a 430 grain bullet similar to a minie ball. The size of a man on a horse target is about eight feet long by seven feet tall. At even 200 yards that would be a big target. On the Reno skirmish line troopers were shooting at mounted targets at several hundred yards. Reports were that non combatants were killed in the village which if you measure from Garryowen to the site of the southern most Lakota village you are talking a distance of 1400 yards. Now with the ballistic arc of the carbine it would be possible to reach out that far only if the soldiers were aiming high at say a mounted targets over shooting them and inadvertently lobing bullets into the tepees of the southern camp. Another note on the cartridge loads. Some 45-55 had cardboard tubes inserted in them to take up the additional space of the reduced load. I am not sure all of them did. There was some excitement on on of the digs when a case was found with "paper" in it. I presume they thought it might be one of the cases driven into the grave location markers containing a name. Not so it was one of the cardboard inserts. Xrays of other cases found the same paper inserts. Regardless of the powder load the soft lead bullets would not effect the rifling of the bore. The hardness differential between the steel barrel and the soft lead wound make that impossible. Kind of like trying to abrade your frying pan with a sponge. Would lead fouling fill in the rifling if not cleaned? Absolutely. That is why you use a powder solvent and a stiff copper cleaning brush slightly larger than the bore diameter. Ballistic tables show an increase in velocity between a .45-55 and and .45-70 when fired from the carbine length barrel. It was also noted by those listening to shots fired. As we know the .45-55 loads were more likely subsonic and the .45-70 muzzle velocity was around 1125 fps and therefore more likely to be heard and distinguished. So I believe it was a felt recoil issue rather than a waste of powder. I think if velocity increases than the increased powder is being utilized. Regards AZ Ranger There were two types of cardboard fillers used one a cylinder and the other a wad if I recall correctly.
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Markers
Feb 16, 2020 8:39:01 GMT -6
Post by montrose on Feb 16, 2020 8:39:01 GMT -6
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Markers
Feb 16, 2020 13:18:44 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 16, 2020 13:18:44 GMT -6
William I think in general that most Native Americans hate us with reason. My friend Michael Bad Hand stated we screwed up everything for men. They hunted and fish and did no house work. They didn't even take down the tipis. Last year I laughed as Real Birds set up a tipi and my friend stated the women should be doing this. Regards Steve
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 17, 2020 9:05:46 GMT -6
When I was on the Pine Ridge Reservation a number of years ago I was fortunate enough to meet several Lakota people. They still talk about what happened to them and even today still use the term "we" as if what happened to their ancestors happened to them. As far as the Crows "fighting for the USA" I think they were more interested in protecting their people and hopefully getting their land back from the Lakota than doing the USA any favors. As it turned out the Crow like many other Indians who "sided" with the US didn't get much better deals than their foes.
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