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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 25, 2016 8:51:21 GMT -6
Thanks for that Will
Got my blood pumping
Steve
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Post by wild on Aug 25, 2016 9:56:23 GMT -6
Royal Irish
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Post by fred on Aug 25, 2016 10:18:43 GMT -6
Count me in on that if the parties agree. Would like to see my friends get together and participate. You are in. As is the gang. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Aug 25, 2016 11:20:04 GMT -6
Anybody read Custer's Trials by T.J Stiles ?
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Post by Colt45 on Aug 25, 2016 12:31:33 GMT -6
Anybody read Custer's Trials by T.J Stiles ? Yes, when it first came out. It is an excellent look into his mind and what made him tick. It ends with Custer leaving FAL to head for LBH. It is a very good book and I recommend it highly.
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Post by wild on Aug 25, 2016 12:40:49 GMT -6
Thanks Colt I sometimes read books backwards and the epilogue did sorta capture a certain sentimentality of Libby's loyalty to our hero's memory and of course Stile's flaying of Benteen did the heart good. Hurrah Richard
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Post by edavids on Aug 25, 2016 13:28:47 GMT -6
Thanks Colt I sometimes read books backwards and the epilogue did sorta capture a certain sentimentality of Libby's loyalty to our hero's memory and of course Stile's flaying of Benteen did the heart good. Hurrah Richard Wild, why am I not surprised!? ;-). I will say Libby did a much better job of defending The Boy General than "keogh" et al could ever hope to accomplish. Benteen? Lose-Lose situation if there ever was one. I will give him credit for ensuring that there was a 7th Cavalry remaining that was able to report to Genarwl Terry on June 27. Hope all is well with you, David
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Aug 25, 2016 14:02:16 GMT -6
I wonder is Thompson's narrative as credible as Gerry's cannon balls in the Valley of Death [posted april 26th] The photo is interesting and relevant to our study of the LBH in that it demonstrates an early attempt to make a battle field more interesting. There were 180 rounds fired at the Light Brigade over approx 2000 metres .The brigade were under fire for 7.5 minutes. Now that will spread the cannon balls over a wide area. The area shown in the photo might be entitled to one or two rounds but not the 50 odd I counted. The valley without the balls just does not tell the story of the battle. Likewise perhaps Peter just wanted to dress up his story. We do not know if the photo was doctored, enhanced, staged or not. For some reason the photographer took the picture. For the men that were present in the 'Valley of the Shadow of Death' it probably felt like it. The caption states 33 spent cannon balls. I personally do not believe Thompson had to dress up his story to make it more interesting. He wrote of his experiences and that is all. Gerry
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Post by wild on Aug 25, 2016 14:26:35 GMT -6
Hi Dave Someone has to hold the line. I'm doin well thank you Hurrah Richard
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Gerry
Junior Member
Peter
Posts: 63
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Post by Gerry on Aug 25, 2016 14:37:19 GMT -6
Gerry, I have given this much thought and because of our relationship and my respect for you, I think you and I need to get together-- time and terrain permitting-- and have a serious discussion of the Peter Thompson business. I think we need to walk the area you believe Thompson walked; I think we need to go over some of his comments and what he claimed to have seen; and I think we need to take a long, hard look at your "scroll" to see where it compares and where it differs from my study. Maybe by doing that we can make better sense of the Thompson tale... I am always willing to listen and learn and if we can put things together better, maybe it will be a learning process for us both. As long as you are willing to listen to reason and to ultimately reject things we decide are Thompson's fantasies-- if any-- then we have a forum for discussion. Right now-- and I realize this is far down the road-- June 2018 looks like it can work... providing I am still alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If not, I will send down thunderbolts upon your head!!!Does this work for you? Best wishes, Fred. Fred, May we all live long and prosperous lives. I do not need a lighting bolt upon my head, for I was already hit by a flood that was produced in a lighting storm. Different story... Yes, it would be an interesting gathering. There may be something in the works in the next year or so. I paraphrase: Remember when Walter Camp met with Thompson and wanted to edit some of the fantasies out of the narrative and make the account into something else; Camp did not press the issue as he did not want to get leveled; for Camp felt Thompson would have noting to do with it. Same with Thompson's wife and daughter, they both wanted some changes and Peter would have nothing doing...Stubborn Scotsmen. Until we meet again, Gerry
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Post by wild on Aug 25, 2016 16:28:38 GMT -6
Famous ‘Valley Of The Shadow Of Death’ Photo Was Almost Certainly Staged
You might recognize the photograph above. Titled Valley Of The Shadow Of Death and snapped by British photographer Roger Fenton in 1855, it’s considered to be one of the oldest known photographs of warfare. Problem is, it might also be one of the oldest known examples of a staged photograph.
Renowned documentary filmmaker Errol Morris has spent a considerable amount of time investigating the photograph over the past decade. The main question on the table was whether the scene was as Fenton found it, or whether he littered the path with cannonballs himself to make the photograph more powerful.
There’s actually a second version of the photograph — one that shows the same scene, except with a road devoid of cannonballs:
The question was therefore a “chicken or the egg” problem: which of the photographs was captured first? If it was the empty road one, then the scene was probably staged. If the iconic one, then it wasn’t.
Morris became interested in the case after reading a book by Susan Sontag titled Regarding the Pain of Others, in which the author claims (in two brief sentences) that the photo is a fake:
Not surprisingly many of the canonical images of early war photography turn out to have been staged, or to have had their subjects tampered with. After reaching the much shelled valley approaching Sebastopol in his horse-drawn darkroom, [Roger] Fenton made two exposures from the same tripod position: in the first version of the celebrated photo he was to call “The Valley of the Shadow of Death”(despite the title, it was not across this landscape, that the Light Brigade made its doomed charge), the cannonballs are thick on the ground to the left of the road, but before taking the second picture – the one that is always reproduced – he oversaw the scattering of the cannonballs on the road itself.
In addition to consulting with numerous historians and photographic experts, Morris went as far as to travel to Crimea, Ukraine, where the photograph was captured, in order to investigate the scene himself. After all of that, he still came up empty-handed.
Finally, Morris and optical engineer Dennis Purcell noticed something that led them to a definitive conclusion: they realized that some of the small pebbles on the side of the road had moved. Since these were almost certainly kicked around as people treaded over them, Morris realized that the photograph showing the pebbles further downhill was the one that came later. It was the iconic version.
And that’s the story of how Mr. Morris came to discover one of the earliest staged photos known to man
Just my own observation. The charge of the Light Brigade took place 25 oct 1854 The poem the Charge of the light Brigade was written Dec 1854 this contains the line All in the valley of death The Poem is distributed amoung the troops Fenton's photo is dated 23 april 1855 with the title In the shadow of the valley of death. Also from a ballastics point of view cannon of the period would not be capible of producing such a grouping .
I just took the issue up because of something Col Montrose said about posters being called on posting of dubious information. It is worth mentioning because so much credence is given to "artifacts" found at the LBH. And I think what Thompson did was no more different from what Fenton did. From their point of view they had a story to tell and used poetic licence to tell it then enter stage left LBH GEEKS who take it literally. Cheers
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Post by dave on Aug 25, 2016 18:07:41 GMT -6
Richard Interesting that the topic of the Charge of the Light Brigade came up on this thread today as I have been rereading Will Hutchinsion's Follow Me To Glory. This was the first historical fiction work I have read about the Crimean War though I have read historical sources about the British/French armies against the Russians. As a high school student I had to memorize the The Charge of the Light Brigade except for the 4th stanza. Still remember parts as well as many of Poe and Dickerson.
I wonder if the British read and study about the failure of the Charge as Americans do about Custer and the LBH? The old adage "success has many fathers, failure is an orphan" certainly applies to both actions. From what little I know about the Crimean War I have deduced that just about everyone except Bob's uncle was blamed for the failure of the Charge. Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Aug 26, 2016 0:24:02 GMT -6
Hi Dave
I wonder if the British read and study about the failure of the Charge as Americans do about Custer and the LBH? Well I think the LBH is an embarrisment for Americans while the charge is a matter of pride [in spite of blunder]for the Brits. A glorious blunder v a shameful disaster. [hope I'm not being disrespectful here].
Further to the photo ; the charge and destruction of the Light Brigade is front page news. If you are a photo journalist as Fenton was ya goh ta have a Photo of the valley . You cannot go to the Crimea and not get a photo of the valley. And the valley without cannon balls is like the Titanic without ice . Problem, if the real valley of death has no cannon balls then find one that has and with a bit of rearranging you have your tragic valley. Of course you don't say it's the valley into which the Light Brigade charged but "in the Valley of the shadow of death" should do the trick.
Fenton and Thomson had a story to tell and they tell it by means of "faction".A method which alters in time and space certain actions for the purpose of spurious elaboration/decoration; for the battlefield detective more misleading than downright false information.
Cheers Richard
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Post by shan on Aug 26, 2016 4:39:38 GMT -6
With regard to the photograph of 'The valley of death,' Given just how many men and horse were killed in that action, one would have thought that there might have been at least some sign of dead horses scattered about. With regards to the human remains, naturally one would have presumed that the dead men would have been cleared from the field very shortly after the battle.
In this sense, the field might have looked somewhat like the site of the battle of the LBH, with the human remains either buried or taken away, but the dead horses left where they were found to be subjected to the mercy of both animals and the elements.
So, If its true that Fenton took the photograph some six months later, and if this was indeed the actual site of the battle, then I would suggest that its possible that some at least, of the animal remains would have already been reduced to bones, if so, then where are the bones?
Shan
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Post by jodak on Aug 26, 2016 6:23:08 GMT -6
It does seem suspicious that so many cannonballs would have ended up in one location rolled right up against each other, especially since I would think that the majority of rounds fired at the troopers (Did they call them troopers in the British Army?) were not solid shot at all but were instead shells and canister. Was there a road, as depicted in the photo, along the route of the charge?
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