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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 3, 2011 14:10:19 GMT -6
I have nothing to argue with, as you point out; just gut, and no particular emotional attachement. But here's the thing.
For this possibility to have ballast, Boston has to be going faster than he's been credited to have arrived about 10 minutes or so sooner than previously postulated. All alone zooting the bluffs to brothers mostly out of sight with Indians about on land that could serve as an ambush study probably provided 'incentive' for speed. Not unbelievable.
Whether or not he took a breather to 'wave howdy' isn't crucial or relevant or maybe likely to this or any point. Just saying, there is a tendency to try and meld actions to people with names known to have participated when there could well be others unknown who were mistaken for them. The Wolf Tooth activity is an example. They were there, but is it necessary or likely that any and all interaction with the cavalry was by them?
Kanipe has already left, from wherever he started. Martin doesn't know about him.
Martin had a wounded horse and would be going slower than Kanipe or Boston moved back to Benteen, maybe decaying to a weak trot half way through. The descriptions of arrival times do not drip with surety in any officer's memory. Terms like 'fifteen minutes' and 'a little while later' seem interchangeable. Normal. But at Kanipe's arrival, Martin should have been visible if he arrived 15 minutes later.
It struck me in Gray that, accurate or not, an uncommon number of interactions were verified or allowed as possible because of the meeting between Martini and Boston when you trace the process back.
If Martin is concerned with a horse he thinks exhausted - again, all alone on that creepy ground with enemy about - he may or may not have see the Rees who may, or may not, have been there at the needed time. But suppose he actually didn't see any Indians on his side of the river, hostile or not. Together with Kanipe's blissfull unawareness of Boston (and how is that possible, again, unless Boston was already there?)(or Kanipe is full of it, my vote)(or both) isn't it possible that what Martin testified to, meeting nobody and Lee seemingly unaware that he had met anybody, is correct?
Really. How would Lee and Whitaker let that go unremarked?
Martin DID change his story. He changed it back. The meeting appeared along with Sioux waving blankets and whatever, and about the time the note reappeared, sparking renewed interest in Martin as in everyone. In his eyes harmless elaboration of which one, maybe two soldiers in history have been guilty. Big deal. And he continued to do it to the end.
Don't know about the other two soldiers, but perhaps.
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Post by fred on Jan 3, 2011 20:24:36 GMT -6
Gut, sometimes, is the surest indicator and something that should not be arbitrarily discarded. It is always caused by something and many times that "something" is an item everyone else has overlooked. So, in my opinion, you have a valid-- and probably nagging-- point.
It is my opinion Boston was going extremely fast-- not initially, otherwise he would not have been seen when he was by Benteen's command. My estimate at that point was some 5.3 MPH, then picking up speed to a faster jog, probably around 7 MPH as he passed them by. From then on, he busted it-- probably up to 12 MPH or so-- realizing he was too far behind his brothers. By the time he passed the lone tepee, he was maintaining that speed, but it was only about 3.5 miles from where Edgerly saw him, so that is not unreasonable. Your point here is well-taken and in my opinion accurate.
If he took any sort of breather, it was a couple of minutes to water his horse, probably in the same general area his brother did, only because he had to be following shod prints. I doubt that water break was for more than a minute and he was on his way again.
(Your Wolf Tooth point is also valid and I use Wolf Tooth only in a generic sense, simply because he was there-- theoretically-- and could be part of the reason for the volley firing. Wolf Tooth, however, is an enigma that we shouldn't dwell on too long.)
As for Boston's relevance here... he isn't. At no point. If I am correct and he told George and Tom of Reno's retreat while the three brothers were atop Luce Ridge, that news had absolutely no affect on anything, other than to unknowingly doom the three of them, along with 207 other men.
Kanipe's departure, by the way, is the other enigma here and the fact that Martini, supposedly traveling with George and Tom-- his two good buddies-- is unaware that Kanipe has been sent back, is another dart in the Kanipe dart-board. Of course the corollary here is that Kanipe would have no way of knowing Martini would be dispatched a few minutes later, a legitimate messenger, with essentially the same message. A awful lot of immediacy where none was yet needed, don't you think?
As for those terms of "fifteen minutes," "a little while later," along with distance estimates, they are difficult to deal with and out of necessity must be tinkered with and set into a more realistic context. If we were to add up Fred Benteen's distance estimates, from the time he reached Reno Creek to the time he turned toward Reno Hill, we would see him well into the mountains west of the LBH River. I had to even rig his estimates of where he met both Kanipe and Martini. If Benteen were accurate, from known locations and times, he would have met them in the middle of the LBH valley.
My estimates are that Benteen met Martini no more than two minutes after meeting Kanipe. Nothing else fits. It is also a measure, when tied into a number of other events, of just how slow Kanipe had been moving. Even were Benteen's distance estimates reasonably accurate, the time difference would not have been that much greater, maybe an additional two minutes. Our minds, because of everything we have read over the years, interpret that difference much more widely. It wasn't... and more important, it couldn't have been.
Your pick-up on Gray is extremely interesting. I rather smiled when I saw it because I thought I may have been the only person to have noticed the same thing. Sometimes even a big mouth like me is afraid to throw another wrench into the gears for fear of the sure-to-follow-firestorm. The man is, of course, beloved by everyone from the NPS to the army's General Staff College!!!
The bottom line is that the meeting between the two and its effect on other events is utterly and completely irrelevant and that includes anything to do with Kanipe's or Martini's speeds. That is really a very clever pick-up. It took me quite some time to put it together.
The correct answer.
I cannot explain Whitaker; Lee thought it irrelevant. Why else?
This is why I rely on Martini only at the RCOI... except maybe for some "color commentary" past 1879.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 3, 2011 20:39:20 GMT -6
Because this is now all about Martini, moving it back to that thread and appending my posts here, there.
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Post by fred on Jan 3, 2011 22:05:57 GMT -6
Because this is now all about Martini, moving it back to that thread and appending my posts here, there. I'm with you.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 4, 2011 15:18:26 GMT -6
Reading the calamityannie posts on the other board, it seems 'keogh' - who has thrown off his board the horrors of Markland and others - tolerates so long as they support his fictions. Like Wiggs and others, there is certainly a disturbed element to the serial ID's of one person trying to construct a personality where none of interest exists, and which is an irrelevancy to the board anyway.
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Post by fred on Jan 4, 2011 19:41:49 GMT -6
These guys are all the same, though I do not know about this "Joe Wiggs" character and I am not yet terribly sure about "Reddirt," though I suspect he/she/it is the same person as "calamityannie." That latter creature is "Boston," "Francis Marion" (who "keogh" tossed), as well as several other asinine personalities that popped up over there.
Diane will also be interested to know it is old "Two Moons," someone I greatly admired when I first came on these boards, but who inexplicably disappeared, probably for the same tortured reasons. Some of this was PM'ed to me by the individual in question, and I would not normally reveal it, but this imbecile has bent me out of shape too many times, and the old body can only take so much abuse.
You know what I like about you, Darkcloud-- and I never gave you the credit you were due-- you say it like it is... just like my wife... and just like I used to do before I became afraid to hurt people's feelings. But you know something? They're not afraid to hurt mine. That does not mean you and I agree on everyone, but I owe you the respect you deserve and I am neither afraid nor embarrassed to admit it. You are a better man than most, though you are pretty crappy at showing it. Hey! Who cares?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 4, 2011 19:43:12 GMT -6
By the way, I didn't use "crappy."
[Damn censors!]
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 5, 2011 6:41:48 GMT -6
Joe Wiggs and Boston appear on the AAO board together with Boston as Benteen on that board. Joe has recently been using female profiles. I think he believes he will get more sympathy being a female poster.
Although I am not sure of the identity of CA the characteristics were there and it didn't take long for the attacks. In general Wiggs likes to attack DC and Dennis likes to attack Fred. Wiggs because DC gets the best of him and Fred because his theory is different from Dennis'.
You guys must be important to have such fan clubs.
AZ Ranger
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Post by fred on Jan 5, 2011 7:51:53 GMT -6
You are the only fan club I am interested in, simply because of what you have done, what you are doing, and because of your savvy approach to things. You and I know we do not agree on everything, yet there is that mutual respect for opinions. DC is not dissimilar. He has a well-grounded, pragmatic approach, and if you understand him a bit, you can get through the acerbic commentary unscathed. And even if you fall, from time to time, beneath his hammer, he takes as good as he gives. Look at the Martini business; a perfect example.
What I dislike are the "trailers," the guys who latch on to someone, then follow them around, sniping at everything one says. And the sniping is never constructive or civil; there is always an edge, always scoffing, always mocking. DC comes right out and hammers your ass from the beginning, no feigned indignation or distress, he says it as it is.
The idiot, "CA," is just like the other personae he has adopted: "Francis Marion," "darkmoon," "stormcloud," "Boston," and several others on the other boards, and probably "Reddirt" over here. He did me a huge favor one time, but you know something? He used up all his capital. Favors do not include attacks. At least not the way I was raised.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 5, 2011 7:54:28 GMT -6
Important. That's me. Important. I drip with import.
It does illustrate the contention, though, that it's rarely about Custer but the poster's self image he needs to derive from Custer somehow.
But, to be grateful for what is here to be grateful for, heroesrest is giving it a rest. My retinas are ever thankful.
And, yes, it would be good if all the Martin, Kanipe info you have were added to the Independent Research Sections. I don't like to encourage unprotected work going up without making sure the author is protected for credit, but it would surely be helpful and interesting. When I'm offered stuff to read by people privately, I have to treat it the way movie scripts are avoided by actors. Any shred of originality that was in the offered work that is arguably present in a subsequent offering by the reader (or at least the recipient) without sufficient credit can be an issue. Usually a painful one.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 5, 2011 9:42:43 GMT -6
By the way, I didn't use "crappy." [Damn censors!] Sorry, Fred! I have modified some of the censored words over the years, but I think crappy works as well. Your comments about DC are spot-on, which is why I have always ignored the whines against him. If anyone feels abused by DC, see Fred!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 5, 2011 10:54:15 GMT -6
Recent expressions of approval are very nice, appreciated, and not necessary. Please return to previous accepted methods of devotion: small animal sacrifice, hummed prayer, and excessive drinking.
Also, fred and benteeneast: yet again, someone on the other board is trying to pretend Martin's note said 'come quick.' It's 'be quick.'
Yes, there's a difference, and again it is:
Get ready for school and be quick. Further interaction about this isn't foreseen as necessary.
Get ready for school and come quick. Interaction is demanded. Someone's waiting.
This sort of stuff is important.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 5, 2011 17:42:47 GMT -6
And now, one of the 459 moderators has erased all reference to this posting that fred made, lest anyone from that board visit here. This after the numerous times we've sent people over there.
On the other hand, conz is finally coming into focus for what he is, so in all a good day.
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Post by Melani on Jan 5, 2011 19:39:43 GMT -6
And now, one of the 459 moderators has erased all reference to this posting that fred made, lest anyone from that board visit here. This after the numerous times we've sent people over there. What post are you referring to? Post#2277 on "Benteen's Dawdling" refers to your comments on this board.
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Post by fred on Jan 5, 2011 21:38:01 GMT -6
I haven't even bothered to look, I am so bugged. I responded to a post "Benteeneast" made and I will continue to respond to others, but I have sworn off completely anything "ConZ" puts up any more. I do not like to knock someone on a different board-- though as I think about it, I am as guilty as anyone-- but I just can no longer abide the made up stories and the matter-of-fact acceptance of debatable issues as though there is no other way it happened.
I would hope that when I put something on the boards that I state it as my opinion or I would express some self-doubt. This business of posting crap as immutable fact has me jumping up and down like a monkey on a trampoline. It is one of the reasons I insist on putting up my own comments when I posted the Martini and Kanipe stuff. Those comments allow people to see how my line of thinking works and if they see flaws based on equal or better testimonies or interpretations, hopefully they will point them out in a constructive and objective manner. Over here, DC is very good at that. Over there, there are also a number of people who do it well. I respect those opinions and I enjoy those debates, even if the conclusions never change.
A perfect example is the business Darkcloud brought up about the supposed Martini-Boston Custer meeting. The discussion was primarily between us two and I am not sure DC is correct, but his doubt has made me wary and now I have to couch all the "Boston Custer" discussions with that wariness. It has also put me on the lookout for any other references. That is constructive... unlike the "assumption-presumption/non-sequential" hoo-haa the clown "calamityannie" put up.
Anyway, I would be very disappointed if any posts were hauled down; it would make me think very seriously about remaining on that site. I guess it is easy enough to check... if I am not mistaken, the post # is not re-used, creating a gap between posts.
Best wishes, Fred.
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