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Post by fred on Feb 16, 2011 21:30:43 GMT -6
Well,trapped is a relative term. Your inference is not,necessarily, my implication. Lol. You answered your own question. The other commanders are also trapped,are they not? The point is, events begin to spin out of Custer's control so quickly that Custer does not even have time to at least consolidate his 200 men. Why does not that make sense,to you? Actually... there is nothing you have placed in that quote above that makes the slightest bit of sense to me. You must be a rocket scientist pontificating about things well above my poor, meager intelligence quotient. You will also have to point out to me how and where I answered my own question. Golly, gee! Things are happening so quickly here... and poor me... I'm trying to consolidate my thoughts. Best wishes, Fred.
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fz1
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Post by fz1 on Feb 16, 2011 23:24:05 GMT -6
Well,trapped is a relative term. Your inference is not,necessarily, my implication. Lol. You answered your own question. The other commanders are also trapped,are they not? The point is, events begin to spin out of Custer's control so quickly that Custer does not even have time to at least consolidate his 200 men. Why does not that make sense,to you? Actually... there is nothing you have placed in that quote above that makes the slightest bit of sense to me. You must be a rocket scientist pontificating about things well above my poor, meager intelligence quotient. You will also have to point out to me how and where I answered my own question. Golly, gee! Things are happening so quickly here... and poor me... I'm trying to consolidate my thoughts. Best wishes, Fred. Lol. Well,it was almost that quick for GAC.
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Post by fred on Feb 17, 2011 5:38:15 GMT -6
Well,it was almost that quick for GAC. ... you know this for certain...? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 17, 2011 7:04:58 GMT -6
The companies were together when they started toward MTC. Why would Benteen be able to get to a trapped Custer and Custer not be able to get to Benteen? It is 50/50 as to whether Benteen can get thru to Custer,but Custer does not know this when he sends for Benteen. Further,Custer has indians between his position and Benteen,is increasingly being surrounded. Benteen has no Indians in his rear and has Reno to his front when he recieves Custer's order. The Indians are between Custer and Benteen it doesn't matter whether they were behind Benteen or not. Custer was notifying Benteen of the village and to come to the location along with the pack train. Custer did not remain in place. He continued on increasing distance between himself and the rest of the regiment. You still haven't answered why you think Benteen with 3 companies can move through the Indians yet you feel Custer is trapped with 5 companies. My thought is that more than enough Indians got ready to fight during Reno's move down the valley. Custer was confronted by Indians that had not been engaged in Reno's fight. Custer choose not to go back to reunite the regiment when he could have and at some point realized he was going to die in place. I suspect he thought he was on offense the majority of the time and realized to late what was about to happen. Benteen had different information to process including Reno's retrograde. His decisions were based up what he learned after he moved up to Reno. AZ Ranger
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fz1
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Post by fz1 on Feb 17, 2011 7:47:44 GMT -6
Well,it was almost that quick for GAC. ... you know this for certain...? Best wishes, Fred. 0. Yep. Most of the killing occurs in the last 20 minutes of the battle.
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fz1
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Post by fz1 on Feb 17, 2011 8:15:27 GMT -6
It is 50/50 as to whether Benteen can get thru to Custer,but Custer does not know this when he sends for Benteen. Further,Custer has indians between his position and Benteen,is increasingly being surrounded. Benteen has no Indians in his rear and has Reno to his front when he recieves Custer's order. The Indians are between Custer and Benteen it doesn't matter whether they were behind Benteen or not. Custer was notifying Benteen of the village and to come to the location along with the pack train. Custer did not remain in place. He continued on increasing distance between himself and the rest of the regiment. You still haven't answered why you think Benteen with 3 companies can move through the Indians yet you feel Custer is trapped with 5 companies. My thought is that more than enough Indians got ready to fight during Reno's move down the valley. Custer was confronted by Indians that had not been engaged in Reno's fight. Custer choose not to go back to reunite the regiment when he could have and at some point realized he was going to die in place. I suspect he thought he was on offense the majority of the time and realized to late what was about to happen. Benteen had different information to process including Reno's retrograde. His decisions were based up what he learned after he moved up to Reno. AZ Ranger I answered;You didn't hear. Custer has indians encroaching from multile flanks and has less ability to move than does Benteen who has,at that time, yet to encounter any indians,anywhere. So,again,Benteen has more freedom of movemet than Custer. Were YOU required to choose Custer's or Benteen's position on the field,which would you choose?
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Post by fred on Feb 17, 2011 8:43:25 GMT -6
Yep. Most of the killing occurs in the last 20 minutes of the battle. Wow! I am impressed! Most of the people who come on these boards and exhibit that much certainty have videos. But I am still confused... please pardon my ignorance. I'm perplexed about this word, "most." Would you please define that for me? Is it "most," meaning the majority of the 209 men with Custer? You know... 51% or more? Or are you using the word in relative terms, i. e., most, meaning 40 here, but only 5 over there, 3 someplace else, 1 running away, type "most"? And my next question is where is all this taking place? If in different areas, are these separate events, Indians finishing off one "most" and then moving on to the next? And when did this "20 minutes" begin? At Ford B? Beyond? Calhoun Hill, maybe? Or are you referring only to the action around LSH? Thanking you in advance for such clarity... Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 17, 2011 8:51:23 GMT -6
Custer has indians encroaching from multile flanks... When? Where? When? Where? Completely irrelevant. And the point here is...? When? Where? And so what? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Feb 17, 2011 9:21:12 GMT -6
Welcome Fz1. It is always a pleasure to have an intelligent, literate expert on the battle to come along and help dumb guys like me about the battle. It appears from your posts that you have the battle all figured out with a great degree of certainty. As you know, the devil is in the details and to make the profound pronouncements you have made require a great knowledge of the details. More knowledge than I have, that's for sure.
I hope you are here to stay and help educate us with the details. Seems like we have had a rash of battle know-it-alls who come in on the couple boards I go to who post for 2 or 3 weeks or months with profound conclusions relegating everyones elses' opinions and theories as crap and being twisted. When pressed for details regarding their own conclusions and theories and why other theories are bunk, they falter and then are gone from the boards. It appears to me from your posts that you are a bonafide expert and not one of those who hit and make a few arguments and then run.
Maybe you can help us out on a couple things:
1. We've been discussing Martini meeting Boston Custer or not. What is your thought on this?
2. I have a relative who died with Keogh's I troop. It would be nice if you could detail I company's movements after they left Reno/Ash Creek until he ended up in that swale. I've never understood how they moved around that day so they ended up where they did. When was Keogh killed in relation to those on LSH and Calhoun Hill?
Thanks.
bc
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 17, 2011 9:22:18 GMT -6
The Indians are between Custer and Benteen it doesn't matter whether they were behind Benteen or not. Custer was notifying Benteen of the village and to come to the location along with the pack train. Custer did not remain in place. He continued on increasing distance between himself and the rest of the regiment. You still haven't answered why you think Benteen with 3 companies can move through the Indians yet you feel Custer is trapped with 5 companies. My thought is that more than enough Indians got ready to fight during Reno's move down the valley. Custer was confronted by Indians that had not been engaged in Reno's fight. Custer choose not to go back to reunite the regiment when he could have and at some point realized he was going to die in place. I suspect he thought he was on offense the majority of the time and realized to late what was about to happen. Benteen had different information to process including Reno's retrograde. His decisions were based up what he learned after he moved up to Reno. AZ Ranger I answered;You didn't hear. Custer has indians encroaching from multile flanks and has less ability to move than does Benteen who has,at that time, yet to encounter any indians,anywhere. So,again,Benteen has more freedom of movemet than Custer. Were YOU required to choose Custer's or Benteen's position on the field,which would you choose? Sorry my sound is not on. Last summer I was at Custer's and Benteen's positions on the field and enjoyed both locations.
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Post by bc on Feb 17, 2011 9:29:26 GMT -6
The Indians are between Custer and Benteen it doesn't matter whether they were behind Benteen or not. Custer was notifying Benteen of the village and to come to the location along with the pack train. Custer did not remain in place. He continued on increasing distance between himself and the rest of the regiment. You still haven't answered why you think Benteen with 3 companies can move through the Indians yet you feel Custer is trapped with 5 companies. My thought is that more than enough Indians got ready to fight during Reno's move down the valley. Custer was confronted by Indians that had not been engaged in Reno's fight. Custer choose not to go back to reunite the regiment when he could have and at some point realized he was going to die in place. I suspect he thought he was on offense the majority of the time and realized to late what was about to happen. Benteen had different information to process including Reno's retrograde. His decisions were based up what he learned after he moved up to Reno. AZ Ranger I answered;You didn't hear. Custer has indians encroaching from multile flanks and has less ability to move than does Benteen who has,at that time, yet to encounter any indians,anywhere. So,again,Benteen has more freedom of movemet than Custer. Were YOU required to choose Custer's or Benteen's position on the field,which would you choose? Thanks for information Fz1. It would sure help if you could tell me which flanks that Gall, Crazy Horse, Lame White Man, and Two Moons approached from. Would also like to know if Custer was flanked after returning from Ford B or Ford D or both? And how did Co. E end up in Deep Ravine? Thanks. bc
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fz1
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Post by fz1 on Feb 17, 2011 18:53:58 GMT -6
Yep. Most of the killing occurs in the last 20 minutes of the battle. Wow! I am impressed! Most of the people who come on these boards and exhibit that much certainty have videos. But I am still confused... please pardon my ignorance. I'm perplexed about this word, "most." Would you please define that for me? Is it "most," meaning the majority of the 209 men with Custer? You know... 51% or more? Or are you using the word in relative terms, i. e., most, meaning 40 here, but only 5 over there, 3 someplace else, 1 running away, type "most"? And my next question is where is all this taking place? If in different areas, are these separate events, Indians finishing off one "most" and then moving on to the next? And when did this "20 minutes" begin? At Ford B? Beyond? Calhoun Hill, maybe? Or are you referring only to the action around LSH? Thanking you in advance for such clarity... Best wishes, Fred. Look,Hoss. I'm sorry you're an embittered person,but that's not my fault. If you don't think "most" of the casualties occurred in the last 20 minutes of the battle,fine. If you wish to discuss it,fine. You know where to find me.
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fz1
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Post by fz1 on Feb 17, 2011 20:24:25 GMT -6
It is 50/50 as to whether Benteen can get thru to Custer,but Custer does not know this when he sends for Benteen. Further,Custer has indians between his position and Benteen,is increasingly being surrounded. Benteen has no Indians in his rear and has Reno to his front when he recieves Custer's order. The Indians are between Custer and Benteen it doesn't matter whether they were behind Benteen or not. Custer was notifying Benteen of the village and to come to the location along with the pack train. Custer did not remain in place. He continued on increasing distance between himself and the rest of the regiment. You still haven't answered why you think Benteen with 3 companies can move through the Indians yet you feel Custer is trapped with 5 companies. My thought is that more than enough Indians got ready to fight during Reno's move down the valley. Custer was confronted by Indians that had not been engaged in Reno's fight. Custer choose not to go back to reunite the regiment when he could have and at some point realized he was going to die in place. I suspect he thought he was on offense the majority of the time and realized to late what was about to happen. Benteen had different information to process including Reno's retrograde. His decisions were based up what he learned after he moved up to Reno. AZ Ranger No, AZ. I disagree. There is no "wall" of indians separating Custer and Benteen,as you seem to think,at the time Benteen receives Custer's order. Had Beenteen been "quick", and not encountered Reno,Benteen might have made it thru to Custer. My previous post is correct. It is more difficult for Custer to go to Benteen,than it is for Benteen to go to Custer.
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fz1
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Post by fz1 on Feb 17, 2011 20:26:24 GMT -6
I answered;You didn't hear. Custer has indians encroaching from multile flanks and has less ability to move than does Benteen who has,at that time, yet to encounter any indians,anywhere. So,again,Benteen has more freedom of movemet than Custer. Were YOU required to choose Custer's or Benteen's position on the field,which would you choose? Sorry my sound is not on. Last summer I was at Custer's and Benteen's positions on the field and enjoyed both locations. Lucky you. So,then,you have to vote "present" on my question?
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fz1
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Post by fz1 on Feb 17, 2011 20:54:41 GMT -6
Welcome Fz1. It is always a pleasure to have an intelligent, literate expert on the battle to come along and help dumb guys like me about the battle. It appears from your posts that you have the battle all figured out with a great degree of certainty. As you know, the devil is in the details and to make the profound pronouncements you have made require a great knowledge of the details. More knowledge than I have, that's for sure. I hope you are here to stay and help educate us with the details. Seems like we have had a rash of battle know-it-alls who come in on the couple boards I go to who post for 2 or 3 weeks or months with profound conclusions relegating everyones elses' opinions and theories as crap and being twisted. When pressed for details regarding their own conclusions and theories and why other theories are bunk, they falter and then are gone from the boards. It appears to me from your posts that you are a bonafide expert and not one of those who hit and make a few arguments and then run. Maybe you can help us out on a couple things: 1. We've been discussing Martini meeting Boston Custer or not. What is your thought on this? 2. I have a relative who died with Keogh's I troop. It would be nice if you could detail I company's movements after they left Reno/Ash Creek until he ended up in that swale. I've never understood how they moved around that day so they ended up where they did. When was Keogh killed in relation to those on LSH and Calhoun Hill? Thanks. bc Thank you bc. I don't consider myself an expert,like you. I am just interested in the battle. Haven't read re Martini and Boston,I think they met on the trail. The other posters,you mention, probably did not stay because of the supercilious attitude of some of this boards members towards new members. What do you think? Sorry for your loss,Hoss.....,but I'm sure you know more of your relative's movements with Keogh, than I. As I recall, Keogh was wounded,then killed, near Calhoun Hill.
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