newn
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by newn on Apr 8, 2010 7:20:15 GMT -6
Most accounts i've read-tell that the estimated time Custer's Units had were only about on half hour before being destroyed-would that confirm Lakota accounts that it last no longer than a hungary man has to take his dinner?
If it lasted so short a time-would this imply that Benteen did the right action in not coming to help Custer--who in fact was already dead-and that Benteen's forces would have been cut to pieces?
Also if Custer's units fired volleys into the air-the Indians though they were crazy-was it in fact a desperate distress call for help from either Reno/Benteen forces?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 8, 2010 11:37:15 GMT -6
It wouldn't conflict with them, but where did "hungry" appear from? I've only read that Gall supposedly referenced a pole shadow and it was about the time it took to eat a dinner, around 20 minutes which is not a wolfed down meal.
Benteen had no reason to go look for Custer, but we don't actually know when Custer died, either. The mission was not Save General Custer.
Volleys fired in the air are not attested to by anyone beyond wishful, guilt-ridden, or slanderous thinking after the fact.
Volleys as distress signals over much scattered enemy fire is a dubious endeavor, and not audibly distinct at distance from one fired at the enemy, so what would be the point? What is the point of volley fire against an un-massed enemy, anyway?
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Jun 6, 2010 18:20:52 GMT -6
Most accounts i've read-tell that the estimated time Custer's Units had were only about on half hour before being destroyed-would that confirm Lakota accounts that it last no longer than a hungary man has to take his dinner? Newn, I hope I can help you and, will certainly try to so. Most accounts, both Native American and White, estimate that the battle was approximately three hours in duration. However, the major portion of the fight consisted of Indian infiltration by foot, long distant sniping, and maneuvering by all for a little over two hours. Eventually, the warriors achieved an infiltration that surrounded Custer's forces to such a degree that escape became impossible. Indian testimony informs us that there came a point in time when Custer's troops on the knoll at the northern end of the ridge were so overpowered and decimated from hundreds of arrows falling among them that an Indian surge was now possible and so they did. The last hurrays lasted approximately twenty minutes: the time it takes a hungry man to eat his meal and the time it takes the sun to travel the distance of a lodge pole;twenty minutes.
If it lasted so short a time-would this imply that Benteen did the right action in not coming to help Custer--who in fact was already dead-and that Benteen's forces would have been cut to pieces? We will never know what Benteen should have done nor will we ever be in a position to judge what he may have done simply because no one tried. Did Reno and Benteen do the right thing? Their actions ensured that their men were gifted with a chance to survive; a good thing! Having said that, let's look at the other side of the coin. Your father, brother, son, or even you are trapped on a little knoll, gasping for breath in the extraordinary heat and overwhelming dust which is choking the very breath from your lungs of these poor soldiers who gasping for breath. The only possible relief available for these tormented souls standing upon this "hill" of death, paying for help which will never come. What do you believe should have been an appropriate response for the two of them?
Also if Custer's units fired volleys into the air-the Indians though they were crazy-was it in fact a desperate distress call for help from either Reno/Benteen forces? This statement combines to separate events that occurred over a period of time. The volleys you refer to occurred shorty after the foray at "Ford B" as Troops "E" and "F" departed from that position and headed towards the point where the units were designated reemerged;Nye-Cartwright ridge.
The alleged "firing in the air" is based upon Indian testimony that speaks of the last minutes of the battle when a group of soldiers, in desperation, rushed from Custer Hill towards Deep Ravine attempting to find safety which did not exist.
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Post by darkmoon on Jun 6, 2010 20:06:28 GMT -6
Since Reddirt answered newn's question, I think it only fair that I answer Dark Clouds.
Since when did the plains Indians have food processors, slice and dice machines, and all the other processed foods and conveniences that should have allowed them to "wolf down" a meal? I'm quite sure our pathetic attempts to associate our burger and fry mentality to a slab of buffalo flank served with a side of wild turnip fries, whatever that would look like - boiled in buffalo fat and allowed to dry in the heat of the day - before consuming. would i'm sure, take less than 20 minutes to eat, right?
Benteen didn't have any reason to go look for Custer... hmmmm... really? I suppose that last order through Martin was just to make sure that Benteen knew it was a "Big Village", makes perfect sense to me. Oh, and I agree, the mission wasn't to save anyone, Custer, Reno or Benteen. What were the odds of being in the right place, at the right time, for any of them, to do any of that?
Um hm... Them Indians were all of that, I'm quite sure.
Ummm lets see… just a wild guess, they were massed?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 7, 2010 9:38:22 GMT -6
Wiggs likes to restart threads months after they were abandoned. That way, people are less likely to read and understand the specific references not always apparent to those new to it.
When in camp, the fires were often kept going and hot food was near always available. To hypothesize warriors waiting while wives started preparing food and fire from scratch is a non-starter. The reference to the speed of eating a meal was an Indian's, and it was to the distance a pole shadow moved.
Benteen had no reason to abandon Reno, who'd requested his presence in any case, and go look for Custer, who had five companies. I'm not a vet, but when outnumbered dividing and subdividing in the face of the enemy at their window sill is probably covered by one of those handy cliches.
What would Indians mean by the term "volley?" Do soldiers ever say "I fired a volley...." ?
Weak logic.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 8, 2010 15:25:12 GMT -6
1) Most accounts i've read-tell that the estimated time Custer's Units had were only about on half hour before being destroyed-would that confirm Lakota accounts that it last no longer than a hungary man has to take his dinner? 2) If it lasted so short a time-would this imply that Benteen did the right action in not coming to help Custer--who in fact was already dead-and that Benteen's forces would have been cut to pieces? 3) Also if Custer's units fired volleys into the air-the Indians though they were crazy-was it in fact a desperate distress call for help from either Reno/Benteen forces? Newn, I don't know if you are still a poster here but if so, the following may help with your enquiries:- 1) It was not a Lakota account but is attributable to the Northern Cheyenne Two Moons. It is quoted in the book "Killing Custer" by James Welch on page 294. Apparently it was part of the following caption, "The whole valley was filled with smoke. We circled around them, swirling like water around a stone. It took as about as long as it takes for a hungry man to eat his dinner," mouthed by the Cheyenne warrior in a short silent film now housed at the Museum of Natural History in New York. It should be borne in mind that Two Moons was referring to the final moments of the fighting on Custer Hill and not to the length of the entire action. 2) That should mean a change in your perception about the amount of time Benteen had to go to Custer if that was, in fact, what he was meant to do. 3) Here are some references to the description you give:- Iron Hawk (Hunkpapa Lakota) to Eli Ricker in May 1907: "They surrounded Custer. Custer's men in the beginning shot straight, but later they shot like drunken men, firing into the ground, into the air wildly in every way." Red Horse (Minneconjou Lakota) to Dr. Charles E. McChesney, U.S. Army in 1881: "The Sioux charged the different soldiers (Custer's command) below, and drove them in confusion; these soldiers became foolish, many throwing away their guns and raising their hands..." The volleys you mention appear to have been fired earlier than the actions on Custer Hill etc., and at a location nearer the river. The firing in the air etc., described by the two Lakota warriors can probably be attributed to the actions of desperate men in a hopeless situation, but you must draw your own conclusions. Regards. "Hunk" Papa
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Reddirt
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Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Jun 8, 2010 19:36:41 GMT -6
Great job. You explained it better than I ever could.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 8, 2010 20:42:57 GMT -6
Weren't they all Custer's men?
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 9, 2010 10:10:31 GMT -6
Weren't they all Custer's men? Steve, Of course they were, but I am sure you will recall that in the Indian accounts the terminology for describing which soldiers they were fighting was either "Reno" or "Custer", not that the Indians knew the difference on the day, but the labels were attached by the interviewers/interpreters to make things clearer for us, hopefully! Regards. Hunk
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 9, 2010 20:42:28 GMT -6
Weren't they all Custer's men? Steve, Of course they were, but I am sure you will recall that in the Indian accounts the terminology for describing which soldiers they were fighting was either "Reno" or "Custer", not that the Indians knew the difference on the day, but the labels were attached by the interviewers/interpreters to make things clearer for us, hopefully! Regards. Hunk I hear you but think it also a place for intoduced error in accounts if one doesn't discern the difference between Custer, Custer's regiment, and Custer's final 5 company battalion. Steve
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 10, 2010 11:03:36 GMT -6
I hear you but think it also a place for intoduced error in accounts if one doesn't discern the difference between Custer, Custer's regiment, and Custer's final 5 company battalion. Steve At the risk of getting into the realms of semantics and whilst you are probably technically correct, I am at a loss to understand how one quotes accurately from Indian accounts by adding lumps of explanation to the accounts? Perhaps you can enlighten me? Hunk
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 10, 2010 17:53:23 GMT -6
I hear you but think it also a place for introduced error in accounts if one doesn't discern the difference between Custer, Custer's regiment, and Custer's final 5 company battalion. Steve At the risk of getting into the realms of semantics and whilst you are probably technically correct, I am at a loss to understand how one quotes accurately from Indian accounts by adding lumps of explanation to the accounts? Perhaps you can enlighten me? Hunk We're on the same page. You may not be able to quote accurately from Indian accounts due to issues such as introduced translation errors. So my basic look at accounts are that they could be accurate, they could be false, or they could have translation errors. The first two by the interviewee and the last by the translator. Steve
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 15, 2011 9:20:12 GMT -6
Do you think the term the Indian used was like a foot ball team manager bragging about a game they just won and saying, the game was over in the first ten minutes when we went X number of points ahead, but in reality it was much harder ?. I my self dont think either Reno or Benteen had any notion of searching for Custer and only the fact that Weir's act of trying to make contact forced there hand and they did a small jesture of at laest having a go, and it would act in there defence at any later inquiry. Regards Yan.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 15, 2011 12:03:15 GMT -6
Ian: When you get the definative answer to that question this board and all others like it will close down. People have been asking the very same, and speculating about what Reno/Benteen did, should have done, could not do, would not do, were incapable of doing etc for 135 years come this 25 June, The speculation ranges from having a picnic to ill starred valiant attempts to rescue, with all stops in between.
The time line estimates range from 10 minutes (the time it takes a hungry man to eat his lunch) to 3 hours (if your really pissed off at Reno and Benteen). The more you are in the Custer corner it seems the longer the time the valiant band struggled against insurmountable odds, and therefore dooms Reno and Benteen to be damned by history.
My other friend from your side of the pond (Richard) is in the neighborhood of half an hour. Fred is I think one hour and a half. Dan is somewhere close to Wild and I am a little shy of Fred at about an hour and fifteen minutes. Frankly I have never done the time study Fred has. Mine is more gut than anything else.
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Post by fred on Jun 15, 2011 17:54:00 GMT -6
Fred is I think one hour and a half. Dan is somewhere close to Wild and I am a little shy of Fred at about an hour and fifteen minutes. Frankly I have never done the time study Fred has. Mine is more gut than anything else. Give or take. It all depends on how one measures it. Despite the jerry-rigging and preconceptual fantasies one reads on the neighbor's board, we can arrive at a reasonable estimate of the battle's length by reading all the pertinent narratives, measuring distances, and places battle events within the observations of troops on Reno Hill and Weir Point. First of all, I start off with the premise that watches were not set on local sun time, a fallacy perpetrated by John Gray, but if one is interested enough and takes the time to dig deeply into all the sundry facets of the event, one comes to the conclusion Gray mis-read these events. Depending on the location where you might want to set the beginning of the battle, the Custer fight lasted anywhere from 1 hour 18 minutes to 1 hour 45 minutes. I have chosen an arbitrary time for the battle's conclusion, but only because of the way I believe Custer's final living troops were overrun. What is really interesting about that "arbitrary" time, however, is how well it all fit in with witness testimonies from troops on Weir Peaks. So while any time-line must, of necessity, contain guesswork, that guesswork can be certainly supported by all sorts of valid studies. Best wishes, Fred.
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