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Post by herosrest on Jul 21, 2010 14:21:30 GMT -6
quote author=azranger board=research thread=3701 post=69840 time=1279540302]What is the original source for the statment that Reno was a wing commander on June 25, 1876?[/quote][/color][/b][/size] The point is back to front, anullment of the wings, per se, is fantasy, Reno's quaint way of playing the 'hard done by', command of the wings by Reno, principally, became an issue for Custer after right wings scout that re discovered the trail.
Custer obviously decided to go hands on leading the right wing, thus the only Major present would lead the left wing and Benteen who had commanded that wing suffered because of the dispute between Custer and Reno. The battalions were not dissolved or anulled. That is about as silly as it can get with Lima Bravo.
Had such an event occured, had Custer anulled his battalions the order, would have been in written form and it would exist today, the order having been written before the march to Lima Bravo.
Throughout the affair, Reno portrayed himself hard done by and disadvantaged, suffering at the hands of those around him, Custer, Gibbon. He did stand firmly behind Benteen though. ;D
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 25, 2010 10:54:22 GMT -6
For an example of actual research, and independent at that, read AZ's description of his actual research on Benteen's scout route. Compare and contrast to this blather from those who couldn't tell land from building.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 25, 2010 14:07:18 GMT -6
HS -- Custer had the main body battalion composed of two wings commanded by Yates and Keogh. Reno was the advance guard sent down to cross the LBH. Benteen was a battalion commander on a recon in force to left of the main body. The pack train and rear guard which had the second highest number of troopers. McDougall was in command of the rear guard.
There are very few things that are as clear as these components of the regiment after the stop below the divide. No one claims Benteen to be under Reno's command during his recon mission ordered by Custer. It is Custer who sends the HQ messengers to Benteen to continue on with the recon not Reno,
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 15, 2010 20:26:26 GMT -6
This a joke - Benteen tried to make it to the rear of the village. As if a village has a rear should be ones first question. Does fiction count as independent research?
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Post by herosrest on Aug 19, 2010 14:27:12 GMT -6
Yo AZ Ranger, i'm not sure if you are being serious.
Benteen's trip to the rear of the village is record, mentioned by Lt. Varnum in a letter to his family written on July 5th 1876 at the camp on the Yellowstone. The comment is record and as valid as anything stated by other officers. Gen. Terry stated that Benteen was two miles left of Reno when the action commenced, it's horses for courses.I am no fan of Benteen but am not anti the guy either.He wasin a very interesting and awkward situation once he reached the Little Big Horn valley at the mouth of Long Otter Creek. It is a very interesting military problem that he faced.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 19, 2010 14:29:19 GMT -6
Post #1 updated with book cover & face. Rather cool in Mondrian fashion.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 20, 2010 6:44:34 GMT -6
Yo AZ Ranger, i'm not sure if you are being serious.
Benteen's trip to the rear of the village is record, mentioned by Lt. Varnum in a letter to his family written on July 5th 1876 at the camp on the Yellowstone. The comment is record and as valid as anything stated by other officers. Gen. Terry stated that Benteen was two miles left of Reno when the action commenced, it's horses for courses.I am no fan of Benteen but am not anti the guy either.He wasin a very interesting and awkward situation once he reached the Little Big Horn valley at the mouth of Long Otter Creek. It is a very interesting military problem that he faced. At what point did Benteen cross the LBH? So Martin left Custer and arrived to meet Benteen in Reno Creek along with Kanipe. To reach the place you state would be impossible horseback with the timing constraints of events. The village had no rear or front it had separate units gathered together in close proximity. Does a circle have a front or rear? I suggest that you ride that route to otter creek and see how long it would take to do that. Do you have the approximate route on a map the you think they went? The action started in Reno Creek while Reno was facing toward the LBH and sent ahead as the advance. That would put Benteen in the area as described by all the officers with Benteen and truly researched by Darling. AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 20, 2010 7:29:05 GMT -6
Here is my computer research.
FIGHTING THE INDIANS
Camp on the Yellowstone, July 4, 1876.
Dear Father and Mother:
"At about 2:30 we came up to the neighborhood of the camp, and three companies, A, G and M, under Major Reno, started in. I saw them going, and Lieutenant Hare, who had been ordered to report to me for duty with our scouts, went in with them. They pretended to run away and we charged up the valley, near the village,dismounted, put our horses in the timber near the stream, and fought on foot. My scouts scattered about so I had no command near me, and I reported to Captain Moylan for duty with Company A.
On the bluff we reorganized, and found that Lieutenant McIntosh and DeRudio were gone, and Lieutenant Hodgson was killed close by. Only five men and Lieutenant Wallace came out with company G, and more than one-third of our command was gone. Just then Colonel Benteen and three companies came in from a trip they had endeavored to make to the rear of the village, and the pack-train came up with one company more. This gave us four full companies with the remains of three others and the citizen portion, numbering in all about three hundred men.
This is a brief account of affairs. Don't worry for me.
Your affectionate son, CHARLES A. VARNUM"
In the letter I found it is dated July 4, 1876. Can you produce the one you stated as July 5, 1876?
The letter clearly states that Reno had 3 companies and list them refuting that he had wing.
Notice that Varnum has retreated to the hill when Benteen comes up.
As far as the use of the term rear you can note that Varnum also stated that "we came up to the neighborhood of the camp". Seems he uses terms not expressed by others.
What it doesn't state and must be in the July 5, 1876 letter that you present in your research is "Otter Creek" , Benteen at any point prior to where Varnum states they met in the July 4 letter to his parents as crossing the Little Big Horn river and it doesn't support your research that Reno had a wing.
So could you produce a source for the July, 5 letter where it uses the name Otter Creek, has Reno as wing commander, and Benteen on the other side of the river?
Clearly in my reading of the July 4 letter Reno has a battalion of 3 companies G,A,M. Benteen arrives at Reno Hill after the Reno Retrograde and Otter Creek does not appear in the July 4 letter.
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Aug 22, 2010 14:16:24 GMT -6
Hi AZRanger. The letter of the 4th July is the letter of the 5th, my hand slipped! Varnum records an endevour, Benteen and three companies came in from a trip they had endeavored to make to the rear of the village. 7th Cavalry consisted of Two wings, the left and the right.That is fact. On the 25th June, Maj. Reno commanded the left wing, how ever you cut the cake and melt the cheese, Benteen commanded a battalion of the left wing which Reno commanded.
The division of command occured within 7 miles of the Ford A, probably a li'l less and an oblique to the left of some five miles or so, throws Benteen's unit into Long Otter Creek. Of course in 1876 and for a time after, who knew what that valley was called. Herendeen might have known its name, no one else beyond the tribes seems able to call the place by a name. The accusation against Benteen that you seem to take the matter to be, is not knew. It is exactly what Whittaker aimed at Benteen in his book of 1876 after interviewing him and seeing the written message from Cooke.
It is not my fancy or game, that is the history of it and what started the rumpus that led to RCoI. Gibson, certainly, viewed Little Big Horn valley during that scout to the left by his battalion. That he looked up the valley and not down it at the regiments target is the issue, the pointy end of it. If you believe that no one of that oblique to the left bothered to look upriver at the village, then we are simply wasting each others time.
Having realised the size of encampment, just as Lt. Hare did with Reno's advance and realising that Reno had 'probably' jumped the gun to attack, what would an experienced, capable and brave commander like Benteen, do.
Send Custer and possibly Reno a message and warning that the roof was about to cave in?
It is a classic military dilemma.
Whittaker stirred it all up and put his own slant to it. Every one in general was looking for a donkey to pin blames tail to, that is how people are.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 22, 2010 23:31:54 GMT -6
It is not my fancy or game, that is the history of it and what started the rumpus that led to RCoI. Gibson, certainly, viewed Little Big Horn valley during that scout to the left by his battalion. That he looked up the valley and not down it at the regiments target is the issue, the pointy end of it. If you believe that no one of that oblique to the left bothered to look upriver at the village, then we are simply wasting each others time.
It is your fantasy with no research involved. Gibson marked on a map the location above South Reno Creek where he stated he made his view of the valley. Went there myself and saw the same view.
All testimony regarding the division of the 7th is consistent that until the divide Reno had no command. Shortly after the command crossed the divide Benteen rode to the left. Reno was given 3 companies and rode down Reno Creek to the left of Custer. Custer had a battalion consisting of 2 wings. The pack train was commanded by Mathey and the rear guard by McDougall.
Wings are not a permanent structure in the chain of command. Reno was second in command under Custer on the 25th. Terry had Reno as Wing commander before he left and then Custer was in charge of the 7th while moving down the Rosebud began.
Since this is research tell us which companies were with Reno and his wing when he made the orginal scout and Terry was still in charge. I would suggest that some of those companies were with Custer and they died on Custer battlefield.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 24, 2010 8:52:59 GMT -6
The components of the right wing were detailed by Peter Thompson, who made the scout under Reno, with the right wing. An anomoly is Company G, which went with Reno into the valley of truth. There is a discussion to be had there is terms the right wing at scout but Thompson again indicates G company with Custer onto Lima Bravo's bluffs. The point of seperation was described by Gibson in his letter. I would appreciate most earnestly, reference to Gibson's map data and a URL if you know it to be online. Thanks in anticipation. The Gibson's, husband and wife were a remarkable couple.
The wings and battalions were a permanent structure in the chain of command as were companies, platoons and headquarters. They were utilised as circumstances required or dictated. A simple measure of the truths and fantasies is Reno's bent or version of the anullment of the wings which is his spin on things. His testimony at RCoI in regards the regiment, 'he felt it was his regiment' is interesting, perhaps illuminating. Reno commanded the 7th Cavalry's left wing at Lima Bravo, end of story. Custer led the right wing because, otherwise, Reno by seniority would have been at its head. That is a cookie crumbling, dunk it first next time.
The spot Gibson viewed the valley from is interesting, obviously, so l take it that it is not possible to view the terrain at Garryowen from there. I assume you agree that Gibson and others, possibly, would have looked down the valley as well as up it. Explaining how and why they didn't think of doing that would be rather fun.
Did you make it to the rifle pits on the hill in Davis creek where George Herendeen and the Yellowstone expedition dug in on April 11th/12th 1874 to fight off Gall and the Hunkpapas before they took their wagons, cannons and beef herd into the Little Big Horn valley, marched to Lodge Grass and had another pitched battle with 1500 Lacota & Cheyenne. It would seem that Custer had pretty good intel as to the lay of the land, river crossings and the tribes likely movements. This knowledge would have been the basis of Custer's estimate of 1500 hostiles the regiment might face and instructions to Benteen to valley hunt or push on into the next valley, Little Big Horn valley.
Custer chose to attack, rather than be attacked. That is in the record. His scouts knew he was making an attack , this was immediately after the officers call and thus, belief that this was not the case, is the fantasy. That is what intelligent people accept and this is Lima Bravo. Custer attacked the Custer Big Village and found that it was bigger than expected and had no choice but to attack from the bluffs once Reno was engaged. If Custer really was actually waving his hat at Reno from the bluffs, l doubt very much it a hoorah, Reno was quite possibly sucked in by a few running braves and jumped the gun.
Custer led the right wing, otherwise Reno would have been sat at its head. It is a pity Custer didn't lead the attack into the valley.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 28, 2010 1:18:16 GMT -6
So explain how Custer sends Martin with a note and Martin goes down Reno Creek to meet Benteen? How could that be if Benteen was somewhere else? The pits are before the divide on the Reno Creek side. Attachments:
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 28, 2010 1:30:26 GMT -6
Custer took the main body of CEFIL and it was split into two wings.
There were no permanent assigned companies to wings. A wing could be as small as 2 companies as on Custer Battlefield with Yates and Keogh as wing commanders.
The 7th had 3 majors each commanded 4 companies. Two of the majors were missing -- Tillford was on leave and Merill was assuaged to duty as chief of staff to the president of the Sentential Exposition
Kind blows a big hole in your permanent two wings theory when in reality there 3 majors with 4 companies each.
By the way Reno commanded the right wing and Benteen commanded the left wing as they moved out from FAL. Reno commanded BCEFIL in the right wing and Benteen commanded ADGHKM in the left wing. You can find this in Godfrey's narrative. This was their marching formation which changed when the started down the Rosebud. They were no longer guarding the wagon train with the formation of Reno on the right and Benteen on the left.
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Sept 3, 2010 8:45:42 GMT -6
Post #1 updated with a new page and a couple of banners below.
Hi AZ Ranger - thanks for the image of the 1874 plate, interesting stuff and publications by that family, some of it very hard to find these days.
One of the things that is difficult to fathom about study of the battle is the way Terry's report of the 27th, Reno's also, how both are ignored. Terry was told Benteen was two miles to the left when the action began, one assumes that information came from Benteen. So that is where those three companies were, later they weren't there as Benteen returned to Reno Creek.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 8, 2010 6:13:06 GMT -6
One of the things that is difficult to fathom about study of the battle is the way Terry's report of the 27th, Reno's also, how both are ignored. Terry was told Benteen was two miles to the left when the action began, one assumes that information came from Benteen. So that is where those three companies were, later they weren't there as Benteen returned to Reno Creek.
The action began in Reno Creek. Before that they were moving to contact. A visual was made on running Indians and Reno was ordered to the advance to begin contact. At that point Benteen would be to the left on Benteen's scout to the left. Reno crosses LBH and turns right and Custer turns right paralleling the LBH. At that point Benteen is to the rear the same as the pack train and rear guard.
You still haven't replied to the fact that Reno and Benteen were the wing commanders. Reno with the right wing and Benteen the left wing. Benteen was not under Reno's command.
Also :
The 7th had 3 majors each commanded 4 companies. Two of the majors were missing -- Tillford was on leave and Merill was assuaged to duty as chief of staff to the president of the Sentential Exposition
Kind blows a big hole in your permanent two wings theory when in reality there were 3 majors with 4 companies each.
Finally Martin delivers the message to Benteen in Reno Creek not far from the pack train. This would eliminate the Benteen on Otter Creek theory since Martin saw Reno in action and found Benteen to the rear in Reno Creek.There is not enough time for Benteen to go to Otter Creek and return to Reno Creek and meet Martin with the message. Where Martin met Benteen is about as factual as anything studied in this battle.
AZ Ranger
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