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Post by wolfgang911 on Jan 27, 2010 16:54:54 GMT -6
the statements by Indian participants sometimes exaggerated their own losses and the intentional nature of the killing. However unintentional the deaths of women and children were, I believe the soldiers knew beforehand that they were bound to occur. indians did not exagerate : in general they down rate their losses in any battle compered to the army figures and even in case of a massacre like this the shoshones say their number lower (about 300) whilst the settlers state 375 (besides that weird double account of 493 are all from whites ) you also state that most of the killing was done by indian scouts most of the times : Oh OK > hardly any indian scouts on the bear river massacre but there were a lot of pawnees on the PR campaign on that arapahoe village attack, that second great connor ndn "battle" that luckily did not turn into a massacre, almost no indians killed. so the 2 points you make don't hold on these exemples. WY man underlines "UNINTENTIONAL", billy says it is colateral damage.... whatever. wounded knee has to be revisited. connor who did not controll his troopers, resulting thus in butchery and rapture and torture at bear river, got more or less lost in the powder river campaign with his divided commands what a heck of a brig. general, worth a visit! ps to add to the octane aggravation ;D : corn is called mais in dutch and wheat is called koren , anyway the shoshone did not cultivate it but exchanged it with mormons
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Post by wolfgang911 on Jan 27, 2010 17:10:06 GMT -6
>>""Connor sent word to Gibbs that his expedition against the Indians in Cache Valley was ready and that ‘it was not my intention to take any prisoners""UNINTENTIONAL COLATERAL DAMAGE still waiting for the hard making of 160 'prisoners' or better said escaping survivors left in the cold while DC thinks it is important to prove whether keogh was unintentionally circumsized in algeria, I preffer to get the record straight with this top 3 ndn massacre
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 27, 2010 18:47:00 GMT -6
"indians did not exagerate" You wouldn't know, Wolf. You speak or read no Native American tongue, do you? Of course, there is nothing to read from that period in their tongue. But humans do, it turns out, exaggerate. Indians are human. Ergo......
As with any people without extensive numeric writing or ability to keep details long term without record keeping (which is, let's see, everybody), they tended to be unsafe with figures and numbers. This doesn't mean they lied or are stupid. One Indian counted 400 odd dead soldiers at the LBH, or at least is reported to have so done.
It only means, just like the Chinese and Europeans, people go through periods where numbers are meant to awe rather than inform (which is why the ridiculous numbers supposedly involved in ancient battles came about), together melded with periods where they're taking a wild guess based other wild guesses, and of course necessary lying to protect themselves and family.
I'd be very surprised if exaggeration for, at least, humor wasn't part of their culture, because it was everywhere else. It certainly is today.
Again, Keogh isn't important. The Algerian issue (any minute now, the proof will arrive, we were told once...) will only demonstrate whether O'Hoohoo tried to prune an event (if it happened) to preclude the Slash for Cash aspect of the Gallant and Handsome Keogh. Either way, it shows how history is manipulated for petty reasons not concurrent to the event or subject, but for the self esteem of mere fellow tribesmen today, or wannabe fellow tribesmen.
Addendum: my error, but the research boards aren't subject to controversy, and this would need to be continued elsewhere.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 28, 2010 5:53:35 GMT -6
In Arizona I have seen corn and milo maize but I haven't seen wheat.
Corn, maize- Zea Mays
Milo maize, - Sorghum spp.
Wheat - Triticum spp.
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Post by BrokenSword on Jan 28, 2010 12:32:02 GMT -6
In the Southland, corn often refers to a clear liquid found in Mason or old mayonnaise jars. Quality can vary somewhat, but its immediate effects are consistent across the spectrum of available product.
Keogh and his companion, Comanche, spent considerable time in pursuit of certain artists involved in the design, crafting and distribution of corn’s blessings and benefits. As I recall, Comanche received at least one bullet wound during just such an encounter.
BeenSippin'
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Post by wolfgang911 on Feb 1, 2010 16:44:06 GMT -6
I'd be very surprised if exaggeration for, at least, humor wasn't part of their culture, because it was everywhere else. It certainly is today. DC I agree with your whole post ( ). I'm certainly not an authority to speak for indian casualties by indian testimony, but Grinnel certainly was for instance, and all his cheyenne's dead bodies with names tagged on it in various battles are always way lower than Custer or connors reports, which makes him say that ndns have more precise and lower body counts than the army. They certainly did not exagerate. Also I repeat, in case of a massacre with ndn victimes, in this case the shoshones account for themselves was way lower than the settlers account of the massacre. (also i'm not aware of the accuracy of shoshone mathematics either in 1863 ),
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 2, 2010 6:50:41 GMT -6
An expert is not always responsible for the data. The expert should be aware of all the available data. I would expect the numbers to be lower in Indian accounts since there is a tendency to name each fatality and pass the names on orally the unnamed become lost over time.
If we rely only on the total number of Indians that are named to fix the total population of the Plains Indians it would be lower than the estimates of the populations also.
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 4, 2010 16:37:24 GMT -6
Body counts throughout warfare have always been subject to who's reporting them. Victors always put their kill and/or numbers higher . . . gee, losers do that too . . . 9,000 warriors at the LBH anyone?
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Post by ignimbrite on Feb 7, 2010 22:28:42 GMT -6
There was an article in the Feb. 7th Billings Gazette about the Bear River fight Tribal members descend in late January each year to the burial ground near the Bear River where soldiers felled hundreds of their ancestors in one of American history's bloodiest_ but little remembered_ massacres.
Descendants of the Northwestern Shoshone who were decimated in their winter encampment in a surprise attack 147 years ago, they stamp their feet in the cold and offer songs and prayers to the dead. www.billingsgazette.com/news/national/article_e6de6a48-1a9c-554f-99b5-dbb9a266a2f9.htmlAny fight is terrible, but as someone who lives in a cold climate, the winter battles and their aftermath seem especially horrible. Ruth
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Post by wolfgang911 on Feb 9, 2010 15:12:17 GMT -6
yep ruth that's why i insisted on the fact that you can not call someone a prisoner that merely escapes the horror and that you leave out in the siberian cold amongst his dead cousins, the whole connor report was BS anyway.
from that billings gazette about that unintentional colateral damage: "Survivors recounted the "battle" as a day of savagery, ending with soldiers smashing infants' skulls, raping dying women and dispatching the wounded with bullets, clubs and axes"
hey guys what's hap, no posts since december, everyone is snowed in in the states?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 10, 2010 5:59:49 GMT -6
10-4 Attachments:
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Post by bc on Feb 10, 2010 9:12:58 GMT -6
Yep Wolf, we've been snowed in with all this alledged global warming and busy picking up the slack for the French failings in Haiti. Send snow shovels. PS. Send snow shovels.
bc
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 10, 2010 14:56:51 GMT -6
January of 2010 was the warmest ever recorded, world wide.
Further, it was predicted and stated that warmer weather led to bigger storms and disrupted flows of moisture. In the last few years, we've all watched local weathermen go ga-ga over the size of storm systems that seem to routinely extend from Boston to Chicago to South Carolina. In Boulder, it's been predicted we're going to routinely get much more water every year, but the West in general will be drier.
It's not a theory, it's a fact. All that can be argued is the size of the role man has played, and even here the evidence is pretty convincing that it's huge and can be greatly reduced without destroying ways of life. Large volcanic eruptions can dwarf our input, but that's no excuse.
Nothing compensates for overpopulation, though, but death by pandemic, war, or birth control. Such a tough choice.
As for Haiti, whatever it's home grown idiocies and the violent French legacy, the US, after encouraging a slave revolt and promising support, failed to come through due to input from its own slave states, who greatly feared - with reason - such activity.
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 12, 2010 14:37:20 GMT -6
Don't look at local weather . . . but world-wide weather to see the true meaning of Global Warming. The Polar Ice Packs are melting, Glaciers are melting, we are getting severe storms in places that don't normally get them, re: the mid-Atlantic states that already have broken snow-fall records, major snow & cold in the south; severe droughts world-wide. The right-wing buffoons are acting like the "world-is-flat" zealots that said you'll fall off the earth when you reach the edge of it. Don't let their scare tactics that support big business fossil fuel burners turn you against REAL science.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 13, 2010 11:03:57 GMT -6
I wonder how warm it was when the painted desert was under water?
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