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Post by bighornbuff on Dec 3, 2009 17:20:53 GMT -6
I am still not sure which is the correct name of the battle, but it sure was dramatic. A number of folks demonstrated extreme heroism. They were pinned down and had no choice, but apparently some went for help, through Indian "lines" and help did come. Forsyth kept the men together, kept his head, although wounded several times. I read Fred Werner's book about it, but nothing else yet. There is a book by Forsyth himself about Thrilling Days of Army Life. Titles like that were common. And there are two more books about it and Forsyth. The battle site is commemorated by no more than a rock monument surrounded by an iron fence. There was not much there during the battle and there still is not much there. It is near Wray, Colorado, extreme eastern Colorado near the Kansas line, then you must travel miles off the Interstate to get to the battle site. But I have always been interested in this battle, along with the Wagon Box Fight of August 2, 1867, about which I started another thread last week or so.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 3, 2009 17:49:51 GMT -6
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Post by bighornbuff on Dec 3, 2009 18:38:43 GMT -6
I see where it has been 3 years and 2 months since someone last posted on that other thread, which was about books about Beecher Island rather than just the battle itself. So although I just posted there, I will keep this thread here, talking about the battle instead of what was written about it, as long as that is okay with admin. There is no other thread about it already existing, under Indian Wars battles. Has anyone here ever visited that battle site? It is so remote that I wondered. I would take a trip off the Interstate to do it, and will probably do that next chance I get.
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Post by Melani on Dec 3, 2009 23:27:25 GMT -6
I have been reading Hero of Beecher Island, a bio of Forsyth by David Dixon, but haven't gotten past the Civil War yet. It has caused me to remember that when I was about 12 and had never heard of any of it, I read a kid's novel on the subject, with Jack Stilwell as the main character. I have absolutely no idea what the name of that book was, or the author, but it was also the first time I realized that there were such things as "buffalo soldiers."
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Post by bighornbuff on Dec 4, 2009 11:13:22 GMT -6
It's a pretty dramatic story, isn't it, Melani, the whole Beecher Island affair? Obscure in a way, but very dramatic. These soldiers performing their duties in the face of being trapped like that, they just never gave up. Good lesson for all of us.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 4, 2009 11:42:26 GMT -6
1. They were not soldiers, but professional civilians who volunteered to serve under Army officers for a short time. That was the entire point, getting experienced Indian fighters to work with the Army for a specific mission since the Army wasn't that good.
2. It's not obscure. It's as well known as anything is beneath the LBH in history of Indian Wars. At its time, it was a big deal.
3. They had no choice. Most fight to the end when there was no option of surrender or escape. They were good shots and had good weapons, in a river bed (water) with food (however disgusting). Indians were not long term fighters, and had to move for game and for sanitation and, bluntly, loss of interest.
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Post by bighornbuff on Dec 4, 2009 12:16:26 GMT -6
Was Major Forsyth the only Army member there? It is obscure compared to LBH or Washita or Wagon Box. People always have a choice, they can surrender, give up fighting, be so demoralized that they just do nothing. They do not have to be heroic. The embankments at Beecher Island were not very high, either. What were the lasting consequences, if any, of the Battle of Beecher Island? Not all that far reaching.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 4, 2009 13:49:16 GMT -6
Lt. Fred Beecher, Forsyth's second-in-command was the only other officer there and he was killed (thus "Beecher's" Island). Everyone else were frontiersmen. I believe one surgeon (not sure if he was military) went along and he was killed.
No lasting consequences as a result of the battle other than the military never again tried the "experienced frontiersmen" tactic again. The Indians tried to same attack en-mass at the Wagonbox & Hayfield Fights with the same results. They learned not to try those tactics again against fortified positions.
John Monnett's book: Battle of Beecher's Island and the Indian War of 1867-1869 may be of value.
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Post by bighornbuff on Dec 4, 2009 14:10:25 GMT -6
Thanks, crzhrs
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 4, 2009 15:12:44 GMT -6
Doing something to save your life isn't, by itself, heroic. It's cerebral cortex survival, and under such circumstances 'choice' wouldn't arise till too late near the end.
Beecher's Island was considered by Custer to be one of the important fights, and it was certainly more so than the Wagon Box or the like. Roman Nose was an important chief, and his death in battle was a depressing event to the Cheyenne.
The fact is, NONE of them including the LBH had lasting consequence due in the main to the battle. The Indians were cooked no matter what specific events evolved along the way.
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Post by bighornbuff on Dec 4, 2009 15:34:06 GMT -6
Beecher Island does not seem to have gone "into the history books" as a major engagement with Native Americans. Doing something to save your life, is, by itself heroic. It is a heroic response to extreme stress. To state otherwise is to suppose that everyone besides Major Forsyth would have done precisely as he did, keep a cool head under fire. In order for what you said to be true, we would expect everyone under fire to keep their cool and do their best, but that is not borne out by the evidence. Others have lost their heads in the same kinds of situations, whereas by your reasoning they should have behaved just as "heroically", that is, their cerebral cortex survival mechanism should have operated like a "hero's". But this is not the case, and so different individuals can behave quite differently under fire. Let us use Benteen and Reno as examples. Benteen would have handled the charge toward the village differently than Reno, simply because Benteen had a clearer sense of who he was. It is almost like he knew what to do ahead of time. In terms of consequences, surely the LBH cannot be said to have no more consequence than the small Beecher Island fight.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Dec 10, 2009 16:17:59 GMT -6
when you read Grinell's version it all comes to down to 2 sharpshooters pitched in and never seen by the indians which gave them major advantage as they could pick out now ands then warriors who could not see the enemy, fighting situation any ndn hated. and there was the bad medecine to roman nose. in the indian version RN is killed at sundown whilst in the army versions (custer's version for instance in My life) he was killed at the very first charge. seems they denied a truce flag those fierce entrenched fighters because of fear of ndn treachery I don't recall that grinell, our buffalo saver, was a professional historian but luckily he thought of collecting the cheyenne accounts of this battle ;D
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 15, 2009 10:13:49 GMT -6
Roman Nose's medicine stated that he could not eat food made/cooked with a metal utensil. Apparently whoever cooked his meal used a metal utensil and by the time he found out about it he & his warriors were ready for the battle. Rather than back out he went into battle and was killed.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Dec 20, 2009 16:38:57 GMT -6
well it has been proven that tin recipoents atcn
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Post by wolfgang911 on Dec 20, 2009 16:47:23 GMT -6
sorry! >>.. that tin recipients are bad for health since then so maybe his medecine man was correct.
anyway roman nose is a sort oa crazy horse to the cheyenne, another great warrior mystery man. pictures on the internet are mostly after his death of another henry roman nose. not unlike CH. by the top of my head i don't have any real picture in my books, but too lazy to check at this time; has the man been photographed?
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