Carl
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Post by Carl on Oct 28, 2011 9:37:21 GMT -6
quod.lib.umich.edu/c/clementsmss/umich-wcl-M-2981.12mcl?view=textBiographyNathaniel H. McLean was born in Piqua, Ohio, on November 27, 1827, to William McLean, a congressman from Ohio, and his wife, Sarah Fox. He spent most of his childhood in Cincinnati, Ohio, and graduated from West Point in 1848. He rose up the ranks in the army, being appointed second lieutenant of infantry in 1848, brevet captain assistant adjutant general in 1861, and major assistant adjutant general the following year. He was stationed with his regiment in California for much of the 1850s, and from late 1861 to 1863, served the Departments of Ohio, Mississippi, and Missouri. In June 1857, he married Sarah "Sallie" Kilbreth, and they had four children, only two of whom, Mary and Carolyn, lived to maturity. In July 1863, McLean was chosen to investigate the assistant quartermaster of volunteers, Captain Francis W. Hurtt. Hurtt, who was a prominent Cincinnati businessman, had allegedly defrauded the government by using public money for private purchases, speculating on rations sold to troops, and abusing his position. McLean reported his findings in September 1863. On November 23 and 24, General Ambrose Burnside issued Special Orders Nos. 436 and 437 to convene a court martial to try Hurtt. However, before McLean could reveal his conclusions, the War Department revoked the order for a court martial, and removed Major McLean from his post in Cincinnati to one in distant Vancouver, Washington Territory. Newspapers, such as the Cincinnati Gazette, speculated that Secretary Stanton had taken this action to avoid a large-scale embarrassment for the War Department. Hurtt was tried and convicted by court martial in 1864, but McLean's attempts at redress were futile, and he resigned June 24, 1864. Congress took up his case ten years later, and in March 1875, the Committee on Military Affairs agreed that he had been treated unjustly by the War Department, and appointed him to the rank of lieutenant colonel. McLean died July 5, 1884, in Cincinnati, Ohio. McLean's widow, Sarah, sued for the payment to which her husband would have been entitled, and won back pay and emoluments in a case decided by the Supreme Court on December 23, 1912. The following is from Cullums Biographical Dictionary of West Point graduates Nathaniel H. McLean (Ap'd at Large) 27 Born Nov. 27, 1827, Piqua, OH. Military History. — Cadet at the Military Academy, July 1, 1844, to July 1, 1848, when he was graduated and promoted in the Army to Bvt. Second Lieut., 7th Infantry, July 1, 1848. Served: in garrison at Jefferson Barracks, Mo., 1848‑49; on frontier (Second Lieut., 2d Infantry, Mar. 29, 1849) duty at Monterey, Cal., 1849-50, — San Miguel, Cal., 1850, — Benicia, Cal., 1850-51, — March to the Mariposa Country, 1851, — Ft. Miller, Cal., 1851-52, — Mono Lake, Utah, 1852, — Benicia, Cal., 1852-53, — and Ft. Yuma, Cal., 1853-54; on Recruiting service, 1854-55; as Adjutant, 2d (First Lieut., 2d Infantry, Jan. 8, 1853, to May 14, 1861) Infantry, Mar. 24, 1855, to Sep. 10, 1857; in garrison at Carlisle Barracks, Pa., 1855; on frontier duty at Ft. Pierre, Dak., 1855-56, — Ft. Lookout, Dak., 1856, — and Ft. Randall, Dak., 1857-58; on Recruiting service, 1858‑60; and on Coast Survey, Mar. 14, 1860, to May 22, 1861. Served during the Rebellion of the Seceding States, 1861‑64: on Commissary and Quartermaster duty at Harrisburg, Pa., May 5-17, 1861; as (Bvt. Captain, Staff — Asst. Adjutant-General, May 11, 1861) Adjutant-General of the Department of the Ohio, May 21 to Dec. 8, (Captain, Staff — Asst. Adjutant-General, Aug. 3, 1861) 1861, — of the Department of Missouri, Jan. 31 to Mar. 11, 1862, — of the Department of the Mississippi, Mar. 11 to July 11, 1862, — of the Department of the Missouri, July 11 to Aug. 23, 1862, — and of the Department (Major, Staff — Asst. Adjutant-General, July 17, 1862) of the Ohio, Aug. 23, 1862, to Dec. 26, 1863; and as Assistant to Provost Marshal General, and Superintendent of Recruiting service for Oregon and Washington Territory, Feb. to July,º 1864. Resigned, June 24, 1864. Civil History. — Purchasing Agent and Auditor of Cincinnati and Indianapolis Railroad, 1864-66. Military History. — Reappointed in the Army by Law of Mar. 3, 1875, to be Lieut.‑Colonel, Staff — Assistant Adjutant-General, Mar. 3, 1875, that being the rank he would have attained in service at the date of the passage of the act. Retired from Active Service, Mar. 3, 1875, under the Law of that date. Died, July 5, 1884, at Cincinnati, O.: Aged 57. Buried, Spring Grove Cemetery, Cincinnati, OH.
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Post by cefil on Oct 28, 2011 10:35:39 GMT -6
Also in the WP Class of 1848 was Thomas F. M. McLean, another good candidate for the “Bison” we’re looking for. He’s listed as not graduating (which tracks with the story Fred quoted, above) and his appointment came from Missouri, which tracks with the story from the “correspondent to the St. Louis Republican” quoted in Johnson’s book.
One other point – perhaps coincidental, perhaps relevant – is that Thomas’ middle initials match the initials of his brother (“Finis M. Mclean”).
cefil
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Post by cefil on Oct 28, 2011 10:59:20 GMT -6
A couple of other notes of interest (well, to me, at least):
One of McLean’s classmates in the Class of ’48 was Richard Irving Dodge, whose frontier service and voluminous writings would surely have elicited a memory of being Sitting Bull’s classmate, had that really been the case.
A member of the Class of ’47, who would have shared at least some of McLean’s tenure at WP, was John Gibbon…again, someone who certainly would have mentioned it somewhere along the way if he had been a schoolmate of SB.
cefil
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Carl
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Post by Carl on Oct 28, 2011 11:35:09 GMT -6
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Post by cefil on Oct 28, 2011 14:15:49 GMT -6
Yep, he’s our guy, all right…though many accounts dispute his death near Tubac, AZ, in 1870. Instead, they have him leading renegade Comanches until 1872, when he was killed by Mackenzie’s troops in the Battle of the North Fork of the Red River: “Mackenzie reported twenty-three Comanches killed, although there may have been more; the warriors, who sustained heavy casualties, threw some of their dead into a ten-foot-deep pool to keep them away from the Tonkawas' scalping knives. Listed among the known dead were Kai-wotche and his wife and, in some accounts, a renegade white man named Thomas F. M. (Bise) McLean, a one-time West Point appointee turned desperado, who was wanted in both California and New Mexico.” tinyurl.com/3thfvxx Another account sums up his story this way: During a hit-and-run Comanche strike on Fredericksburg in the late 1860's, Gen. John P. Hatch caught a fleeting glimpse of a familiar face. Although he had not seen Thomas "Bise" McLean in more than two decades, the middleaged brave that galloped past was the spitting image of the former West Point cadet.
Kicked out of the United States Military Academy for conduct unbecoming a human being, much less an officer and a gentleman, McLean wandered west with a chip on his shoulder. Wherever he went, trouble was never far behind. Shunned by the dregs of frontier society as too uncivilized even for their crude company, the pariah eventually found his niche among the Kotsoteka Comanches.
A white man in Comanche costume was killed in a September 1872 clash with the Fourth Cavalry in the Texas Panhandle. A captain, who viewed the body, came away convinced "Bise" McLean had been slain by soldiers he might well have commanded. tinyurl.com/4235n8z Thrapp also has an entry for McLean in his Encyclopedia of Frontier Biography, and Michno mentions him in A Fate Worse Than Death. cefil
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Post by bc on Oct 28, 2011 22:05:34 GMT -6
This book has a series of battle stories written about those who were in the last of their WP class. At page 158 is the battle of Solomon Forks. Starts out about McIntosh but gets into the battle and the sabre charge led by Col. Sumner. It has a excellent account of JEB Stuart's wounding. He had just struck Chief White Antelope in the head with his sabre and WA turned and fired his pistol striking Stuart in the chest from a foot away. The bullet struck his breast bone and deflected left under his skin. Stuart was riding his horse just a couple days later as all the wounded moved towards Fort Kearny. Sumner was court-martialed for the sabre charge as it was claimed to have allowed the Cheyenne to escape. Harney brought the charges against him. Sumner then challenged Harney to a duel and Harney had him court-martialed again for the duel challenge. After a short trial, Sumner was acquited of the dueling charge after 15 minutes of deliberation. Sumner was a crack shot and Harney was made out to be a coward. After that, Sumner and Harney were given command of separate departments in the army to keep them separated. Go figure. Harney was later the Indian Agent in Oklahoma and was alleged to have offered Black Kettle safety if he came in peace at the time of the Custer attack on his camp at the Washita. Harney disputed that. bc
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Carl
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Post by Carl on Oct 29, 2011 9:28:30 GMT -6
Thomas Freeman McKinney McLean was born in Christian County, Kentucky in December 1824. He was son of Charles McLean (1794-1846) and Polly McKinney (1804-1845). One brother of Charles McLean was John McLean (1789-1830), a US Senator from Illinois. Another brother was Finis McLean, born 1806, a Congressman from Kentucky. A brother of his mother was Thomas Freeman McKinney. boards.ancestry.com/topics.obits2/53526/mb.ashx?pnt=1He was admitted to West Point from Missouri on July 1, 1844. As a plebe with long flowing red hair and a shaggy beard, he was shorn and shaved by Ambrose Burnside and Henry Heth. The Best School: West Point 1833-1866, James L. Morrison, page 67 books.google.com/books?id=dsVvbYlKFmgC&pg=PA67&dq=thomas+mclean+cadet&hl=en&ei=ogasTuLEC8re0QHriZiECw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=thomas%20mclean%20cadet&f=falseIn 1846, 3rd class, he ranked 13th of 52, and 75th out of over 200 in conduct. In 1847, 2nd class, he ranked 20th of 43, and 129th overall in conduct. General Order 27, War Department (or Adjutant General), 1848, convened a General Court Martial at West Point for the trial of Cadets Thomas F M McLean and William H Morris. (Finding this would add details to the story of McLean). There is a story of a red headed man among Apaches killed in 1872. Prairie Gothic .., John R. Ericson, page 4 books.google.com/books?id=WQUXUgthUUsC&pg=PA44&dq=%22thomas+f+m+mclean%22&hl=en&ei=tQ2sTrfnLYnY0QHxsJ3FDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22thomas%20f%20m%20mclean%22&f=false
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 29, 2011 10:07:45 GMT -6
At the end of the day, we have the various stories of Bison, who probably did attend WP, etc.etc. Much of this was, indeed, referenced in SOTMS in 1984 by Connell.
But he was not Sitting Bull, nor did SLA Marshall claim such, nor did - to my knowledge - ANY 20th century historian. Someone perusing this thread might conclude that it has been proven there was a guy named Bison who attended West Point, which was not contested nor the issue.
I still have issues with the Indian graphics as to reliability. I started out with that view, admittedly, but now, having read this book, there are issues that need discussion. Among the things impressive about the book is that the info provided is sometimes contrary - in my mind - to the author's conclusions, yet he responsibly includes it.
Amos Black Heart Bull. Seven years old, but 'at' the battle, although we don't know what he actually saw himself. His uncle was He Dog, and he himself was a grand nephew of Red Cloud. His family was at the Red Cloud Agency when Crazy Horse was killed, and then they went to Canada with Sitting bull. In 1882 he's back at Pine Ridge Reservation.
It is contended that when young, he showed interest in the history of the Oglala and began to draw pictures depicting their traditional history. But it was in 1890 that he enlisted in the Army as a scout, learned to speak English. He also purchased a ledger book to draw in.
He drew many pictures, and they were eventually and formally photographed by an excellent photographer, but in black and white, obviously. The ledger book, when Amos died at age 45, was given to his sister and is buried with her.
Of the two duplicate sets of b/w photos, some from one set were 'hand colored' by unknown individuals based upon unknown criteria. We'd like to think they were based on the ledger art's coloring, but it isn't said specifically if this is so. If it is not, claims about the specific identifications of the chiefs from their clothing accessories is dubious, or at least not certain. It would also explain the incorrect piping and other color issues regarding soldiers.
It does not explain the incorrect headgear, nor the swords, nor anything anything else wrong with these colored photos (which are at least 3 removes from the originals), but we are comforted by the assurance that at least the guy was there. He was: at age seven.
Of course, nobody expects exactitude from a seven year old in trauma, and it is understood that he is recording tales of elders who participated, some of them blood relatives. There are - just as with European literary templates involving Sacrifice, Last Stands, Heroism - conformance traditions.
But how in the world can this be construed as testimony and a first hand account? Who, anywhere on the planet, would accept this in legal sense as testimony?
And with all due respect to the Indian artists, it is sometimes said, as with Amos, that he 'learned to draw' at such and such a year and place. Sorry, but he never learned how to draw at all above that of a third grader: there is no perspective, and his figures are what kids draw early in elementary school. This is NOT a slam against him, but it IS a complaint about fluffing up the already inflated. These are drawings by individuals who don't know how. It is not constructive to pretend otherwise.
In aggregate with all the errors, the removes from the originals, and despite the distance in time from the recorded events when drawn anyway, I'm not willing to accept these as more than they are: notional recordings of contended events by someone not, actually, present for them, but hovering with other children way back.
We've all seen drawings by kids who've been bombed from the air, and raped in Africa where their mother was killed next to them, and all that sort of horror, and it all looks, well, not unlike these drawings. Comparable stuff covers refrigerators across the world. This is not Grandma Moses primitive, nor Picasso slumming, it's the work of people who don't know how to draw and, in fact, is more primitive than some cave paintings found around the world.
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Post by rgthomas on Oct 31, 2011 9:43:01 GMT -6
The colored Bad Heart Bull drawings used in the 1938 Szwedicki volumes Sioux Indian Painting and reproduced hundreds of times as illustrations were not used in ROLH for the exact reason DC expresses on accuracy of color. I've had the privilege to examine in detail all the Alexander edited and Szwedicki printed volumes and while the color, and enlargement, is wonderful, I could not find any record of exactly who did the "coloring" of ther Bad Heart Bull drawingss and if they used the ledger book as the guide. All the records that I could find - Blish's in the American Museum of Natural History and the University of Nebraska Library and the University Press and those of Professor Alexander in the same University of Nebraska sites, the Denison Library at Scripps College and the Alexander family, are silent on those points. All the portfolios are on line at the Unversity of Cincinnati Digital Library (http://digitalprojects.libraries.uc.edu/szwedzicki/index.html) for those interested. As for Bad Heart Bull's art skill and technique I would offer the assessment of Janet Catherine Berlo, Professor of Art History at the University of Rochester (please see www.rochester.edu/college/AAH/people/berlo.html for her bio) in her article about the Szwedicki portfolios in Summer 2009 issue of American Indian Art Magazine where, on page 60, she writes: " Bad Heart Bull experimented with new modes of representation, tackling three dimensionality, front, back, and three-quarter views, and aerial perspective. In "Retreat of Reno's Command", for examply, where he depicts Lakotas armed with rifles routing and killing white soldiers, Bad Heart Bull demonstrates a masterful ability to render complex overlapping figures. His dynamic opus stands as an unparalleled achievement in American Indian art." This is pretty much the assessment I've been made aware of over the last decade - from both Indian and non-Indian artists, historians, etc. Yes, he was seven when he was there but he WAS there and in later life found a way to capture his father's and uncles' bravery. Where is this accepted in a legal sense as testimony? On any Tribal reservation in which it, and other such records (lots of which we non-Indians have never and probably will not ever see) is used for such purposes. I can appreciate the position that discounts the usability of this "art" for discerning more about events. Margo Liberty scolded me in a very public place - the 1999 CBHMA Symposium where I was presenting my paper on this very subject - about trying to use or make sense of (sound familiar Graham readers?) this art so much of which was no more than cartoonish renderings of past Indian life produced for money from white tourists. Five years later, she was gracious enough with her time and knowledge and contacts to help me get through some particularly tough doors after reading several draft parts. Margo was not the only person to question such use and it exists even today in academia as well as other art and cultural study communities. We'll not resolve that here. Having said that, and I don't think I over-state the case when noting that I know of no non-Indian art of this battle that is "accurate". Is there an explanantion for the errors/inaccuracies in the ledger art - sabers, hats, uniform colors, etc.? Yes and no. Each is addressed as best I could in ROLH. For example, the Reno charge drawings in Red Horse all show soldiers with sabers. Fast forward to the Reno retreat drawings and NONE have sabers. Why? I have no idea and noted that issues like that need lots more research. White art, however, is notoriously inaccurate and yet has been widely accepted. Not as an accurate portrayal but rather as an "artistic" interpretation of the event. None of those artists, to my knowledge, were anywhere close to the battlefield at any age and all were TRAINED to draw. Some were also very adept at using bits and pieces of classical European art to portray the battle. The Budweiser print comes to mind in this regard (see Brian Dippie's wonderful Custer's Last Stand: The Anatomy of an American Myth). If we (non-Indians) have accepted non-Indian art as we have should we not allow some room for error in the Indian art? I tend to think yes. So who is more believeable? I tend to go with the folks who were there, even at age 7, no matter what training and skill level when compared to another society's form of expression. Do all the drawings and paintings "tell" us anything - no. And we clearly point that out. Do ANY of them? Well, yes, I think, and when we place the art along with the testimony the "picture", I think, becomes clearer. All art has a story or so the theory goes. Feigning understanding without the story is I think somewhat duplicious in any society. We clearly noted early on in ROLH that where no meaning/message/point could be discerned none would be made. While others captured the combat chaos of individual fighting, Bad Heart Bull captured the collective chaos in a methodical presentation of attack, counter-attack, and end. At least that is what I think...and wrote...I think. Winter's here with short days and long nights and for those interested a reading of Helen Blish's A Pictographic History of the Oglala Sioux will speed time along. It is long out of print but interlibrary loan will get a copy quickly. It is a much sought after reference and fetches a healthy price. Thanks to DC for presenting the points he did about this history source. It, along with the still confusing narratives, continue to give us grist for our studies. Everyone please have a great day! Regards, Rod...
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 31, 2011 11:17:38 GMT -6
These are important issues to me.
It is somewhat annoying that much discussion of these pieces doesn't know that the coloring was NOT done by Amos, but by people unknown based on unknown criteria. I contributed to that on this board, because I assumed we were looking at Amos' coloring. We were not. Thank you for calling attention to that, and I'd bet a lot of people didn't know who've been chirping about it for years. Atop the other issues, it doesn't cement surety.
He drew the Reno attack, was told there were no swords, and didn't include them on their return. Might have happened that way. But no matter how you pat it into shape, he doesn't seem to remember specifics about the battle from that day. From stories, maybe.
"His dynamic opus stands as an unparalleled achievement in American Indian art." Well.... he's no Fritz Scholder, and that sort of rings as impressively as 'the finest jai-alai player in Finland!' There probably is one, but would you bet on him?
And how are we defining American Indian art? Done by a Native American, one supposes, but I'm guessing that it would be relegated to a genre continuing the primitive techniques that are found in every elementary school classroom around the world. If that's all you ever do, you'd find ways to make it better as RichText is better than Text if saving a document. But it isn't really accurate if you have lots of punctuation and paragraphing and italics. Primitive artists like Amos try to capture real life as a text file. Later, he improves, but it's still just a fancy text file.
If a Native American produced something of the quality of Rembrandt, would he suddenly be considered NOT representative of Native American Art? I'd bet he would so damned.
I'm not saying Amos had no talent and that he improved and tried 'new modes of representation', but I am questioning whether he really succeeded. These graphics, again, aren't as impressive as some cave paintings. It's not surprising. In the late 1800's a nomadic people got access to paper and pencils in some abundance, but before that they only had rock and skin and not likely good rock and skin were allowed for kids (or adults) to learn upon. Being able to go 'argh!' and rip a paper up at random is probably an important episode in art history of ANY people. That's probably why it stayed so primitive through the years. Go with what you know and don't waste your 'canvas.'
Is he drawing these representations by choice from a quiver full of artistic styles like, say, Picasso? P could draw and do realistic paintings well but chose not to. These are closer, in my mind, to traumatized people having to create their own two dimensional hand puppets to show what happened, what they think happened, what they wanted to have happened.
"Yes, he was seven when he was there but he WAS there and in later life found a way to capture his father's and uncles' bravery." Well, he was seven and has had a decade and a half to accumulate and meld stories before he 'learned to draw.' Would he recall a father and uncles' cowardice if they so displayed it? I'd bet not. Would he exaggerate? Don't know, but everyone else does.
If we use the term 'testimony' correctly, this isn't it. It's evidence from a source. Testimony can be cross examined. It may be accepted as evidence by Indians in certain circumstance, I don't know but their right to do so. But it is only evidence that the artist had an opinion as shown.
That white art is equally dubious and, quite often, far more laughably ridiculous gets no contest from me. But just how serious would we accept art produced by a twenty-two year old Southerner who was 7 during the Vicksburg siege, where he lived and survived? He wants to show the bravery of his family's soldiers and women under shelling. Might be true. Might not. It could, of course, be judged as art if he'd learned in the fifteen years, just as the ludicrous but beautiful Bible scenes in European paintings all seem to show the Holy Family in France or Europe somewhere evading King Herod as a Knight Templar or whatever.
And, I still fear this collecting of a picture from one decade and validating it with an oral account from another. Forgetting agendas, family, and general accuracy loss over time, this is dubious. People who may have been adults at the battle see the graphic - which may be representative of their story, not independent validation of it - and say it's true. Well........... People want to get along, especially when trapped together on the rez, and might acquiesce to tale different from what they recall, but big deal.
Early in the book you say he caught the heart and soul of his people, or very like it, but I have to ask if that sort of thing could be attributed to any artist of any people. It's sort of inflationary. This is a guy trying to tell a story with, it looks like, cues for people telling stories. It's impressive as hell, but I don't think he thought of it as 'art' and I don't think he was testifying: he was telling a story and left a script for people to retell it later.
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Post by rgthomas on Oct 31, 2011 13:03:53 GMT -6
Early in the book you say he caught the heart and soul of his people, or very like it, but I have to ask if that sort of thing could be attributed to any artist of any people. It's sort of inflationary. This is a guy trying to tell a story with, it looks like, cues for people telling stories. It's impressive as hell, but I don't think he thought of it as 'art' and I don't think he was testifying: he was telling a story and left a script for people to retell it later. Read more: lbha.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lbhbooks&action=post&thread=3634&page=7#ixzz1cNwImQvPDC - they are for me as well. I noted specifically your last thought and we are in violent agreement...he listened, he drew, and had his sister not needed the "rent" money for Blish to study the book, we'd be talking about some deserted isle on which remnants of an airplane were found proving that Judge Crater got that far. Helen Blish and all since her have said as much. I do think he captured, in his own way, "the heart and soul" of their "story". The discussion about "art" versus "artifact" in many circles is yet concluded. I chose to call it "art" since at the time I was researching and writing ROLH I did not have a clear understanding of the argument and its impact. Now, after lots of reading and discussions, I still grapple with the definitions. I agree with testimony as you note and I've been gouged about using the term before. "Indian art" is that produced by American Indians. There's a Federal law that covers all this and more. At least that's how I use the term. I'm not necessarily in agreement with the "traumatized" point. If this art suddenly began appearing on whatever medium available AFTER major disasters then I'd see the reasoning for that view. However, rock "art" (there's that European/colonial term for cultural artifacts again) goes way back and I think most on this thread are probably familiar with it. "Warrior-biographic" art as some have termed it is a record of accomplishments. I tend to think it so and not as a means to record disaster although I've seen some that does especially dealing with Dull Knife's village and Wounded Knee. In fact, I'm working with a Wounded Knee painting at the moment for the NMAI and have found some interesting things about that affair. As I noted before most of this resource is all about the bragging. In any case, appreciate your thoughts and have them in my "think about seriously" list. Some dovetail with lessons learned since publishing ROLH. Hope all is well and please enjoy a grand day! Regards, Rod...
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Oct 31, 2011 16:32:36 GMT -6
For example, the Reno charge drawings in Red Horse all show soldiers with sabers. Fast forward to the Reno retreat drawings and NONE have sabers. Why? I have no idea and noted that issues like that need lots more research. Regards, Rod... Rod, I wonder if this apparent contradiction could stem from the Indian appellation 'Long Knives' for the cavalry, in so far as that is how Bad Heart Bull would have heard them described? His charging soldiers would therefore be carrying their 'long knives' with the retreating soldiers perhaps having abandoned their weapons as they fled in a panic. Just a thought from afar! Enjoying a late summer sunshine. Gordon
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 31, 2011 18:04:32 GMT -6
By a bracing set of pivot kicks to the back of the head by a loving friend, it has been drawn to my attention that I was bouncing between Red Horse and Amos and one other without distinguishing, leaving the impression I'm an absolute idiot.
I'm okay with that, as ever, but for the uninitiated, take my last post (actually, maybe all in this thread) with a small keg of salt. Costco has the best deal on salt kegs, some of my readers so inform.
Obviously, I need new friends. Also, more salt.
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Post by rgthomas on Nov 2, 2011 19:30:42 GMT -6
Gordon, thanks...I just don't know. The "attack" series shows sabers w/scabbards (in fact IN the scabbards). The "retreat" series shows nothing - not even the scabbards - and it was this lack of even the scabbards on the retreat series that made me just call for more research. I just don't know. Good thought though so will add to the growing list of things to consider...
Hope all is well and please enjoy a grand day!
Regards, Rod...
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Post by rgthomas on Nov 2, 2011 19:32:49 GMT -6
DC, understand but think I was tracking which you talking about - mostly. Main thing is this is good stuff.
Hope all is well and please have a great day!
Regards, Rod...
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