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Post by bc on Sept 8, 2009 13:37:25 GMT -6
Herosrest: One thing I've learned so far is that you prove theory by destroying it! So far you've done a good job of destroying your theory here and not proving a thing by providing off topic information that is more open to argument than discussion. Were/are you a school teacher there in your country? Just wondering. You chose this forum and appear ready to argue so here it goes.
Independent research would have a topic and then an article with an introduction, body, and conclusion. Least ways that is what I learned in school. Nothing here deals with a report on where ford C is. I really don't care where anyone posts but what your topic suggests is a new battle theory.
You've really lost me with your off topic, off point, school teaching type of beating around the bush playing mysterious mind games. If that is method you learned in your country, then fine, I'll go play hooky while my classmates sit and maybe learn.
In six pages on this thread, the only thing I can guess at is that Custer tried to cross at the base of Calhoun coulee and was repulsed. You have all these maps to go along with it except you are hung up on this bone pile photo. Calhoun coulee is Calhoun coulee whether there is a bone picture or not. If your theory requires the south skirmish line of dead be on Calhoun then it is probably dead. I'm not a big fan of the south skirmish line and I can come up with other reasons as to why those bodies got there independent of any D fords.
If this forum has too much argument, then there are other forums where many from here post as well. If you like to argue then you are in the right place however some of us casual readers tend to gloss over those argument threads. A while back, there was a lot of heated arguments going back and forth about government NA policy that was probably irrelevant cause we can't change history. However a new poster who was a young history student from Montana was involved. Me, thinking that this naive young student was being picked on by others interjected with a message for everyone to cool it. They didn't. Then when I looked at some of the young students posts, I realized there was no naivete and he was arguing just as deeply as the others. Apparently that thread wore him out cause he hasn't been back since.
I'm just commenting because I initially encouraged you to post. There is a guy on the other and new lbha discussion board who takes the school teacher approach. He just wears everybody out with his beating around the bush and shining on people by not stating what he means (but not all the time though for which he deserves credit). Some of us with 2nd grade thinking processes or not much time to do our own independent research needs these things spoon fed and spelled out to us. ((See Tip run.)(or was that first grade?)
I think your photo analysis of Barry's photos probably deserves a report here on independent research. You analysed some other photos in which I think you believe the analysis didn't bear fruit with what your orginally thought. That is significant in looking at the way you did your analysis.
bc, you prove theory by satisfactorily explaining it. (in this country anyway)
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Post by wolfgang911 on Sept 8, 2009 16:38:07 GMT -6
[/URL] and work out, what the guy heading a sizeable bunch of bad Hunkpapa warriors was saying about what happened. I'll bet you can't be bothered. You may know it all. Fat lot of good that is.[/color] Gray took an existing theory and held it up for ridicule.[/b][/center][/quote] well the map by RITF shows that NDN's draw from the other side, as they were on the RIGHT side
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Post by wolfgang911 on Sept 8, 2009 16:53:03 GMT -6
- CLICK - I had the biggest laugh ever on this board clicking on your lil' animal jokes, keep up the good work, and please stay. I agree with BC that is is a little messy herosrest, like BC* I have little time and second grade brain left, you state so many things at the same time,where is it going? Superinteresting all these thingies to know, you have red more and have more sources then DC so kick his ass, we'll see where this thread ends. If you want to prove there was a mill next to the loop and indeed all the wood is sawn and not chopped, you do have a case. You've also proven there was a lot of neatly sawn timber needed for Ft Custer against DC, right again. Back to the loop and the beavers.. Can we have a resume? By the way I think the mill is the deck of a steamboat which explains the height . *BC read your post again : it states at least 5 times my country, my country this and that, for a european it reads you're not from here shut up ( and if it comes from within we send the cavalry)
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Post by bc on Sept 8, 2009 18:11:38 GMT -6
Not to worry Wolfgang, I definitely am "not" saying you're not from this country so shut up. I can just tell from his website and his choice of English and spelling that Herosrest is not American. I suspect he is from England, Canada, Scandanavia, or even Swiss.
I've traveled all around the world. Before I spent some time in Singapore and the far east, I traveled through Europe once a month on my way to and from the middle east. I find that the continentals are the most worldly people around. Love traveling around Europe with a minor exception for Germany who may be less worldly than the rest (based upon my limited travels there). I actually have much disdain for most Americans who believe that the sun rises and sets on their little town who also seem to think America is the center of the universe. Spend some time in Pakistan and you will find that some of the poorest and simplest living people that are living there in the armpit of the world are really nice human beings. (guess I've been treated better in Pakistan than Germany).
I was actually done posting on this thread because it seems to have lost its point and as you said is a little messy. But your post deserved a response. Herosrest has access to a lot of information I've never seen before and I find some of it fascinating. But the methodology of his presentation doesn't allow me to follow along and respond so I'll just shut my trap and read along. We've already discussed the possibility of a beaver's dam up above ford B making that place a little marshy so if he knows of that beaver dam, another one, or more of them, then I just wish he would say so and then we can go scurrying over the rcoi and other accounts to correlate the data. I would also suspect that Sanderson's crew knowing that they are going to be doing some burial work that may entail making signs and coffins, would be carrying along with the usual picks and shovels, some hand saws, axes, and splitting awls. Sawn and split cordwood does not equal sawmill. Is Keogh's sign made from wood carried along or was it sawed on site, I don't know. That's all.
I'd send for the cavalry but they would probably "dawdle" when they get my call. I'd send for the Airborne myself.
bc
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Post by clw on Sept 8, 2009 18:19:20 GMT -6
But if you leave, the inmates may take over the asylum.
Good God.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 8, 2009 18:55:15 GMT -6
Yo bc. Thanks for your honesty.
My belief is that the case was presented rather well. l fully accept, in point agree, others will not 'see' it that way. l have no gospel to spread, that said l am able to focus objectivly and cannot expect to get off scott free, in an issue dealing with an 'icon' of the battle. l expected to draw flak. My intent is serious. l'll carry through the topic which is broader than simply which hill it was 133 years back, the 133 years are an issue as well with Calhoun hill being known as LSH. That is what set darkcloud off, he picked up the implications immediately.
There are some underlying problems with modern practise of research into this battle. l can see that very clearly, that is actually part of the history. John Gray is a decent place to try and point that up and darkcloud & l will hopefully produce something worthwhile. Besides the location, there is other data to be gleaned from that picture and another which shows people at time of year awkward to reconcile with known visits but it turns out the place was a hive of activity. That' secondary.
The school teacher issue is non starter, someone called me childish. People seem happy with consecutive issues, life isn't really like that - concurrent is the way of things but people find that hard to control, coping with it can be challenging but it only really bothers those who aren't interested anyway or wish to exercise some form of control. I'm free and believe every other person on the planet is as well.
This battle is very individual and yet a vicious tussle has occurred over some of the players and the whole thing developed along certain lines. The history itself is fantastic insight to your country, l enjoy it, there is no harm meant. l do, l admit tend to turn stuff inside out working it through for insight. Thanks for the tips. I'll try and tone things down. The line of sight down both ravines can terminate into that same feature opposite on the west face of the valley. Cameras in either spot end up looking into the same horizon.
That is a building. The picture is taken from Calhoun Hill area
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Post by herosrest on Sept 8, 2009 18:56:00 GMT -6
Hi wolfgang911. Glad you're smiling. If 'Sitting Bull' can be believed, even Custer died laughing. I don't see there is a problem at with darkcloud, it's all quite healthy stuff. RITF is quite definately a disregarded source that is annoying. Because he got caught caught up in the FAL grain theft problem, apsects of that side of things and media overplay have diminished the record he left us. His is a very interesting story, particularly the stockade episode. All this time later and the scsandals which caused the administration problems are still touchy subjects which is odd. There is nowhere on earth this doesn't or hasn't occured. It's life and everyone knows it goes on and we get these, the - l'm so important, get out of my way - ' got stuff going on ;D. Step aside.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 8, 2009 20:36:13 GMT -6
It isn't going to change the world, make me rich or cheer any one up............... solved it! Wow......... big smile. A glass of Rosé and oooh la la. Cheers gents. l nailed the location. Chewing over the building is one that can wait a while, i'm certain a huge story 'Lima Bravo Hotel' lies with detail of that thing, what ever it be. A huge story.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 8, 2009 20:46:45 GMT -6
OK bc my guess is he is from the UK
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Sept 8, 2009 21:00:34 GMT -6
Hi AZ Ranger. UK ya! A fan.
l got myself hooked a good few months back because of some pictures that didn't add up to me. Plugged away with a personal interest and time on my hands. Be well.
It's a puzzle driving huge interest and intellectual study is LBH. What actually happened, science, archaeology, discussion, debate and it is quite amazing if it hooks you. A lot of answers are in some of the early pictures, l wasn't happy with the accepted wisdom for this Boot & Pole picture, same with the pair of D.F. Barry skirmish lines from 10th anniversary. When you sit and try to context those into Gall's battle, they don't work. Try with them as currently assessed, for 5 minutes. Take what you know and build that scenario of Gall arriving and entering combat around those pictures. Only takes 5 minutes to yey or neigh them.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Sept 9, 2009 14:53:02 GMT -6
sorry guys just a simple question is my english from french batavia worse than that of british HEROSREST's, cause if it is , I understand some communication problems here
thansk BC for the explanation, got it
herosrest still try to figure out what the question is, the beaver, the hill, the crossing, the photos, the building, the maps, the surveys, you have to make something out of your research, don't make us have DC come in to explain in one nutshell ;D
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Post by herosrest on Sept 9, 2009 15:45:29 GMT -6
wolfgang911 - he should be busy a while, all things LBH considered.... i'm chewing some stuff over at the moment - it's been quite a week of it. Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 11, 2009 10:18:07 GMT -6
Some information is here for John H. Fouch. www.yellowstonestereoviews.com/publishers/fouch.html
A detail list of a series of his work - www.yellowstonestereoviews.com/photos/Fouchreverse.jpg The prospect of finding some of these works is........ mouthwatering.
At 39. is - View on Custer Battle Field. Probably the picture everyone knows.
At 33. is 'Steamer Rankin on the Yellowstone River'. I take this to be the 'James E. Rankin', a Stern Wheel Steamboat, built 1871. Listed here - www.umsl.edu/pott/assets/rtf/collections/Woold_Ridge_Steamboat_list.rtf
A list of Missouri River Steamboats shows a 'James D. Rankin' - Wrecked on the Yellowstone in 1877. www.kchsoc.org/cultural/boatinfo/steamboating_onuppermissouririver_encrypted.pdf
I am unable to find a date for this mishap, obviously the river freezes and thaws but there is the minor chance that the date is useful for tracking where and what Fouch was doing that year. Fouch did travel that early spring 1877 to visit his family.
There are reasons beside a typo error, the boat would be named either D. Rankin or E. Rankin, which adds to the matter. Trivia is such fun.
It is quite amazing, the world we live in. The Material Culture of Steamboat Passengers. ______________________________________________________
anecdote - Transportation in the raw Montana Territory was slow, and fraught with difficulties. Mules and oxen were laden with supplies of all sorts, and driven from the western cities of Salt Lake, Portland and Walla Walla to the new mining camps. A typical mule train consisting of about 25 animals was led by a bell mare and driven by two "muleskinners,'' famous for their invectives and obscene expletives.
Steamboats, called "fire canoes" by Indians, also carried goods to and from the territory. The treacherous Missouri River from St. Louis to Fort Benton was navigable for only a few months each summer, and captains became men of legend. Despite the hazards and mishaps, steamboats carried enormous quantities of cargo from about 1859 to 1888. More than 40,000 passengers came up the river along with 160,000 tons of freight. One steamer alone carried $1,250,000 in raw gold back to St. Louis. In the process, it is estimated that steamboats burned about 276,000 cords of wood-cottonwood cut by lonely "woodhawkers" from the banks of the Missouri. That is enough wood to build almost 27,000 three-bedroom houses today. The best place in Montana to relive the steamboat era is Fort Benton, where you can still walk along the steamboat levee.
Joseph LaBarge Steamboat Captain by T. S. BOWDERN. S.J. freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~laberge/biography/bowdern.html
Excerpted - ' After his return to St. Louis in 1865, LaBarge became sole owner of the Effie Deans. During the winter months he overhauled the steamboat and made ready for the annual trip to Fort Benton. He secured contracts for a full cargo and decided, on McCune's advice, not to insure the boat. After refusing an offer of $40,000 for the Effie Deans he was awakened at home, that same night, and informed that the Effie Deans had caught nre from another steamboat, the Nevada, and was a total loss.
This was a staggering blow but, backed by credit advanced by McCune, a new steamboat was ordered at once. Needing a boat for the summer, LaBarge leased the Ben Johnson and was engaged by the Northwestern Treaty Commission, popularly known as the Peace Commission of 1866, to transport the members at $300 a day. The commission's ignorance of Indian ways and character plus their contempt for advice handicapped their success and even endangered their lives. Only LaBarge's courage and skill kept the commission's summer work from becoming a total failure.
On his return, LaBarge gave back the Ben Johnson to the owners, claimed his new boat and brought her to the wharf to finish her construction. "I drew the entire plans and specifications for the boat, machinery and all, and she was built that summer accordingly. . . . She cost $57,000 and was a splendid boat. I paid for her partly in cash and gave my notes for the balance." On October 1, 1866, the Octavia, named for his second daughter, began her first trip on the lower Missouri and then on the Mississippi. She wintered at Kimmswick, twenty miles south of St. Louis.
The steamboat season of 1867 was a golden harvest for the Octavia and her master. With every member of his family on board, LaBarge sailed on the lower river in early spring and, on May 7, he started his most successful and important trip to Fort Benton; according to the Montana Post, this trip was also the fastest ever made.
By special order of General William T. Sherman, 100 troops were taken aboard at Omaha. These troops were mostly Irish Fenians under the command of a lieutenant who was as openly hostile to the English as his men. A British officer, Captain Spear, also boarded the Octavia at Omaha. He quickly sensed his danger and spoke of his apprehension. After midnight, as Spear and LaBarge mounted some steps, the sentinel posted on the hurricane deck fired his weapon and the bullet struck the Englishman in the head and killed him instantly. The sentry was released without a trial and this action led to an international incident. A civil trial was demanded by the British government and, at the trial, the soldier was acquitted.
The 300 passengers and 300 tons of cargo made this trip the largest in LaBarge's career. His assumed responsibilities kept him at work night and day allowing him very little sleep. He stated that "The moment we landed at Benton and I knew the danger was over, I went to sleep and instructed my wife not to awaken me even for meals. I slept almost continuously for twenty-four hours." At the end of the season, LaBarge made a profit of $45,000 and to the delight of McCune, he was able to pay the remaining notes on the Octavia.
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Post by BrokenSword on Sept 11, 2009 10:55:28 GMT -6
Hero
Note also that #38 is not listed on the inventory of photos in that series. The photo adjacent to the Custer Battlefield image. I think we went into this (in the oft used phrase) 'somewhere around here,' at a time within or around the last year.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 11, 2009 11:14:47 GMT -6
Thanks BrokenSword, i'll do a local search. This is the ravine picture? that has never been found.
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