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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 18:32:51 GMT -6
NO Problemo, darkcloud, expect away!
Philetus W. Norris, (1821-1885) was a product of his time, he can be taken seriously and set out, as it says in black & white to correct the map of Lt. Edward Maguire in his book, The calumet of the Coteau, and other poetical legends of the border. A glossary of Indian names, words and western provincialisms. He was at the time Superintendent of Yellowstone Park. His book can be read online here - CLICK - At pages 235 & 255 are maps he made, page 235 is worthy of interest to any who might feel his work lacking or dilatory. He is bio'd here CLICK and wrote a guide-book of the Yellowstone national park in 1883.
It was Norris, who recovered Charlie Reynolds headless remains from the valley and buried him in Yellowstone Park, probably at the site of an old hunting lodge he kept there. Norris was a good friend to Reynolds and quite a guy in his own right. His book is full of information LBH - but seriously hard work reading it.
Here - CLICK - are memoranda made by Col. O.M. Poe, U.S. Engineers, ADC. accompanying Gen W.T. Sherman from Missisippi River to the Pacific, July to October, 1877. A very interesting overview of activity that year. Very, very much was taking place and the battlefield was not the lonely neglected place which is assumed. Virtually the entire Northern Cheyenne host passed the winter months until spring in the Greasy Grass valley, large areas of timber were cleared by gangs working to send lumber for construction of Fort Custer, an early and famous photograph shows a temporary lumber mill in place. The 'Where Custer Fell' picture, you can just see its roof and upper frame. Norris as Superintendent of Yellowstone met them all as the Generals travelled about Montana and Dakota that year. The Nez Perce campaign and 7th Cavalry were all over his back yard. Poe's notes refer to the construction at Fort Custer, Terry's Landing and the Lumber Mills. Also the instigation of an overland route for freight - which l believe, ran the entire length of Battle Ridge, which then wasn't actually a ridge but a series of small hills and drainage and figured significantly in General Miles on going campaign when falling river levels halted movement of supplies by river. - CLICK -
Weather caused untold havoc with efforts to keep burials covered, the problem with burials was simply they were not graves, dug six feet into the earth. Torrential hail pounded graves. Sheridan's big brother or possibly Sherman, visited the battlefield 1877, his escort spent time recovering the recovered graves. A specific cause for the problem was put down to torrential hail storms which battered the terrain. This phenomoenon was not infrequent and recorded elsewhere. Army Letters from an Officer's Wife, 1871-1888 by Frances Marie Antoinette Mack Roe [SEE NOTE BELOW]. Lt. Bradley with Gibbon records several memorable Hail storms falling during May & June 1876 which caused havoc and delayed movement by a day on one occasion. Custer's arrival at Yellowstone to meet Terry on 'Far West' co-incided with such an event.
A wagon train of settlers, including William A. Allen travelled up the valley during early August, 1877 and spent 3 days walking the battlefield. Allen includes a chapter on his experience in his Book Twenty years in the Rocky Mountains. - CLICK TO READ - He also wrote Blankets and Moccasins: Plenty Coups and His People with Glendolin D. Wagner, author of Old Neutriment about John Burkman, Custer's orderly for nine years, and a biography of Calamity Jane. Allen was one of the founders of Billings, MT. 'Doc Allen', not the one who ended on boot hill after dancing on the end of a rope.
William A. Allen - from Montana Historical - WILLIAM A. ALLEN, D. D. S., one of the founders of Billings, and a writer of authority on the flora and fauna of the state of Montana, was born in Summerfield. Noble county. Ohio, September 2. 1848. He is a son of Robert T. and Rachel (Guiler) Allen, the former of whom was a son of John and Mary (Blundle) Allen. This John Allen was a son of Sir John Allen, of England, and a cousin of Ethan Allen, of Ticonderoga fame. He was early a seafaring man, but later engaged in farming. The mother of the Doctor was a daughter of William and Mary (Franklin) Guiler, the former of whom was born in Ireland, while the latter was a cousin of Benjamin Franklin. the printer, philosopher and diplomat. __________________________________________________________________________________
[NOTE]Interesting excerts from one letter are below. Of specific interest is reference to weather and pack animals. I believe her husband served in Terry's column during 1876 and returned several time later to LBH.
FORT ELLIS, MONTANA TERRITORY, July, 1884. ...... Faye was at the quartermaster's office when the storm came up, andwhile it was still hailing I happened to look across the parade that way, and in the door I saw Faye standing. He had left the house not long before, dressed in a suit of immaculate white linen, and it was that suit that enabled me to recognize him through the veil of rain and hail. Sorry as I was, I had to laugh, for the picture was so ludicrous--Faye in those chilling white clothes, broken windows each side of him, and the ground covered with inches of hailstones and ice water! He ran over soon after the men got here, but as he had to come a greater distance his pelting was in proportion. Many of the stones were so large it was really dangerous to be hit by them. ......
...... We are wondering if the storm passed over the Yellowstone Park, where just now are many tents and considerable transportation. The party consists of the general of the Army, the department commander, members of their staffs, and two justices of the supreme court. From the park they are to go across country to Fort Missoula, and as there is only a narrow trail over the mountains they will have to depend entirely upon pack mules. These were sent up from Fort Custer for Faye to fit out for the entire trip. I went down to the corral to see them start out, and it was a sight well worth going to see. It was wonderful, and laughable, too, to see what one mule could carry upon his back and two sides.
The pack saddles are queer looking things that are strapped carefully and firmly to the mules, and then the tents, sacks, boxes, even stoves are roped to the saddle. One poor mule was carrying a cooking stove. There were forty pack mules and one "bell horse" and ten packers--for of course it requires an expert packer to put the things on the saddle so they are perfectly balanced and will not injure the animal's back. The bell horse leads, and wherever it goes the mules will follow.
At present Faye is busy with preparations for two more parties of exceedingly distinguished personnel. One of these will arrive in a day or two, and is called the "Indian Commission," and consists of senator Dawes and fourteen congressmen. The other party for whom an elaborate camp outfit is being put in readiness consists of the President of the United States, the lieutenant general of the Army, the governor of Montana, and others of lesser magnitude. A troop of cavalry will escort the President through the park. Now that the park can be reached by railroad, all of the generals, congressmen, and judges are seized with a desire to inspect it--in other words, it gives them a fine excuse for an outing at Uncle Sam's expense. ...... [/color]
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 18:52:51 GMT -6
Reports of inspection made in the summer of 1877. Excerpts from memoranda made by Col. O.M. Poe, U.S. Engineers, ADC. accompanying Gen W.T. Sherman from Missisippi River to the Pacific, July to October, 1877.
July 7 (Saturday) — At 8am, the party, consisting of General Sherman, his son Thomas E. Sherman, Col. J. M. Bacon, ADC and myself, left Saint Paul via the Saint Paul and Duluth Railroad, for the junction with the Northern Pacific Railroad, using the "business-car" of the latter road, courteously placed at the General's disposal. We were accompanied by General Terry, Maj. B.C. Card, quartermaster, Capt. E. W. Smith, ADC. to General Terry, Lt. H.G. Sickel, Seventh Cavalry, and General Williamson, Commissioner of the General Land Office. At 3pm., our car having been switched upon the Northern Pacific Railroad and attached to the regular western bound train, we fairly started for Bismarck, the western terminus of the road. General Williamson left us at the junction for his destination, Duluth. We had dined at Hinckley, and reached Brainerd, at the crossing of the Mississippi River, for supper.
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July 9 — Breakfasted at 7am., and at 8 started for the landing, 1ยฝ miles distant, where we transferred to the steamer Rosebud, Grant Marsh, master. A steamer from Fort A. Lincoln was to have met us at 9am. for the purpose of taking us to that post but it was nearly twelve o'clock before before it reached a point a quarter of a mile below where the Rosebud was taking on freight, having been 4 hours in making the 4 miles, against the strong current. Going on board, we easily made the run down stream to the post in a few minutes — less than half an hour. The post was in command of Maj. J. G. Tilford, Seventh Cavalry. We fully inspected the post, and at 4:30pm. were glad to take the Rosebud, which had dropped down for us, and after making a landing at Bismarck, at 7pm, started on our journey up the river. At Fort Lincoln we first encountered the Missouri River mosquitoes in all their glory. They appeared in clouds and were annoying beyond description. We lunched at Major Tilford's, and although there was netting at all the windows and doors, we found it difficult to eat.
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July 15. — We continued under way all night. At about 2 am. we overhauled the steamer Key West, and took on board Gen. Miles who had caught up with and taken passage on her. At 7 am. stopped at an island near Cabin Creek for wood. The wind again rose and blew a stiff breeze, which detained us until 4 pm but we took advantage of the detention to cut and take on board a large supply of wood, which was obtained from the 'horse- wood' of an lndian encampment and winter corral. This wood is sought for by steatnboatmen because dry, and therefore burns readily. During our stay at this point Lt. Edward Maguire, United States Engineers, visited the general. He was a passenger on a steamer bound down, and was requested by the general to report our progress.
July 16.July 16. — At 2am met the steamer Tidal Wave and took on board Lt. Baldwin, fifth Infantry. At about daylight we passed Wolf Rapids, where an attempt is being made by Lt. Maguire to improve the channel, the funds for the purpose being supplied by the Quartermaster's Department. Soon afterward we passed the mouth of Powder River, and later surmounted Buffalo Rapids with some difficulty, and reached the cantonment at the month of Tongue River at 6pm.
July 17. — In the morning General Sherman, General Terry, General Miles, and myself drove to the new post being built under the superintedence of Captain Heintzelman, of the Quartermaster's Department, where the plans and grounds were inspected.
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July 19. — After an early start and without incident we passed the mouth of the Rosebud, at 4pm., and at 11pm. tied up for the night. Whilst in the neighborhood of the Rosebud, the events of last summer were topics of conversation, as it was from their camp just below the mouth of that stream that the Seventh Cavalry started on the march which culminated in Custer's disastrous fight of the 25th June, 1876, on the Little Bighorn.
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July 21. — Resumed our voyage at daylight, and reached Pease City at 10am. Fort Pease (old), situated about 5 miles below the mouth of the Bighorn, remains in name only. The stockade has been used for fuel by steamboats, and for camp-fires. Pease City, situated about 2 miles below the mouth of the Bighorn, is composed of two log huts, an exceedingly small " block-house," a small corral, and a vegetable-garden in which was seen growing a fine promise of potatoes, corn, cabbage, and oats.
July 22. — Along the banks of the river were constantly seen trees which had been cut down by beavers, at one point trees more than 2 feet in diameter had been felled by these animals. Near the same point, a strip 5 rods wide and 30 or 40 rods long, upon which had stood a dense growth of young cottonwoods of about 5 inches diameter, had been as neatly cleared off by them as if done by man. (NOTE - [/B]16.5 feet or 5.5 yards.[/b])[/i]
July 23. — At 1pm. met the steamer 'Silver City' bound down with Gen's Sheridan and Crook and portions of their respective staffs on board. Both steamers stopped, and a conference of nearly two hours' duration was held on board our steamer, when each went its way. This took place about 8 miles below the mouth of the Little Bighorn, Soon afterwards we met the steamer Bighorn with Gen. Buell 11th inf. on board who transferred to our boat. When we reacbed a point 5 miles below the Little Bigborn, Gen. Sherman and Gen. Buell, taking horses brought down with by the latter, started for the post known as No. 2, at the junction of the Bighorn and Little Bighorn River.
July 24The new post known as No. 2, now being built under the supervision of Lieut. Col. G. P. Buell, Eleventh Inf., is situated upon a plateau at an elevation 125 feet above water, at the junction of the Little Bighorn with the Bighorn, and between the two streams, that is to say, on the right bank of the Bighorn and the left bank of the Little Bighorn. The site seems to have been well chosen by Colonel Buell, indeed, no other in the viciuity is comparable with it. A portable saw-mill was at work which cut about 10,000 feet of lumber per day, and it was expected that another saw-mill would be in operation in a short time. A large number of cottonwood logs were on hand and more were expected. These were cut upon the Little Bighorn, some 8 or 10 miles from the post, and floated down. A brick yard was well under way, and it was expected that enough bricks would be burned for use in the buildings. The post is intended for a garrison of six companies of cavalry and five of infantry, and consists of wooden Buildings of sufficient capacity for the use of such a force. The officers' quarters were under way and progressing as rapidly as the supply of materials would admit. They are being built upon a somewhat novel plan. All the walls, outside and partition, are composed of scantling inches by 4 laid upon their side and spiked down, each to those immediately below. Inside these the plastering is furred off 1ยฝ inches, and outer walls are battened on the outside. The floors are double. This construction gives great strength to the buildings, and will render very comfortable. Under all the circumstances this mode of construction is the very best possible, but the buildings are more costly than the ordinary way, because of the large amount of lumber required and the greater length of time skilled workmen must be employed. The durability of the cottonwood lumber used will be very short, so that if it had been possible, it would have been better to have used more lasting materials, even at a greater prime cost. But in this region, at this time, it was simply a question of cottonwood or nothing.
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August 5. — Started at 6.30 a. m., the road continuing down Trail Creek for about three miles, when it entered the immediate valley of the Yellowstone and turned sharply up that stream, and was nearly level from there to the end of the day's march. At 11am. we had reached Bottler's Ranch, where we stopped for "noon," on the bank of the river, about three-quarters of a mile beyond the house. The reach of the Yellowstone here is a very fine one, the banks high and the channel straight, looking very much like a canal. Just before reaching Bottler's we had been met by Colonel Norris, Superintendent of the Park, who gave us marvelous accounts of the numbers of trout thereabouts, and as soon as we had halted, Colonel Bacon and Tom Sherman got out their fishing-tackle and made for the river with all the spirit of true sportsmen. Both met with a remarkable degree of success, and the result was all the fish required to feed the whole party. The bait used was grasshoppers, the handsome artificial flies, with which the anglers were provided, proving but little temptation to the fish.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 18:55:01 GMT -6
CHARLES F. ROE - US Army. (reference to his wife posted previous to that above)
New York. March 3, 1925.
Brigadier General P. Norton, former Superintendent at the West Point Military Academy, is defendant in a suit in which Mrs. Mary Ryan Hartshorne is suing for $50,000 damages for injuries received while riding in the automobile of General Norton. Miss Nan Roe, daughter of Major General Charles F. Roe, was killed in the same accident in which Mrs. Hartshorne claims she received permanent injuries. ________________________________________
NEW YORK, Sept. 29,1899.
GENERAL CHARLES F. ROE OF THE EMPIRE STATE'S NATIONAL GUARD. - He's specially prominent just now because of the Dewey Island Parade and his Record Ride. A native of Gotham.
Charles F. Roe, Major General in the national guard of this state, is a good deal of a figure just now by reason, of his place in command of the Big Dewey land parade. His recent difference with Govenor Roosevelt regarding position of the Grand Army contingent in the parade was settled without special discredit to either of them, while possibly it increased the prestige of each in a different way. Thus Roosevelt's order that the Grand Army men should have whatever place they desired may have added to his popularity among the veterans of the civil war. His decision later that, as Roe was in command of a city and not a state demonstration, he the governor had no power in the premises, and so withdrew his peremptory telegram, may have enhanced Roe's standing in this town, probably did, without in the least working ill to the governor. It is seldom that such radical differences between two officials as came into being through the Grand Army dispute between Roosevelt and Roe have been settled so amicably.
General Roe is said to be worth a million or more. Though, a citizen soldier, he cannot be spoken of as mock military man, for he served in the Civil war, rising as an enlisted man from the rank of private soldier to be lieutenant, after which, in 1864 he entered West Point and graduated there from in 1868. Immediately afterward he was assigned to the First cavalry with the rank of second lieutenant. In December, 1870, he was mustered out of the service because of the "reduction then made ia the army. In 1871 he re-entered the service, being assigned to the 2nd cavalry. In 1870 he was made adjutant. In 1880 he was made first Lieutenant. In 1888 he resigned from the service for "family reasons.
He entered the service of the national guard as captain of Troop A, a New York city mounted organization, when it was organized in 1889. In 1895,' when it was reorganized, he was elected Major. It was then the largest and best drilled cavalry organization in the United States outside the regular army. In 1898 he was made Major General of the state troops by Governor Black. Soon after the beginning of the Spanish war it was announced that he had been made a Brigadier General of United States volunteers.
General Roe is a big man personally. He is 6 feet 3 or 4 inches in height, and well proportioned, being neither too fat nor too lean.He wears a full beard and mustache and waxes the latter to a point like a Frenchman though he is better looking decidedly than than most Gallic generals. He carries himself well. He uses eyeglasses. His manners are pleasant, and he is popular among his acquaintances. He belongs to a lot of New York clubs and is a familiar figure in certain circles. Roe got his money by inheritance, his father being Captain Stephen Romer Roe. The elder Roe was not an army man, however, nor yet a naval Officer. He commanded a Hudson River steamboat for many years in the days before the railroads so completely overshadowed the rivers as now and was one of the most popular'men on the Hudson. After Captain Roe left the river he opened a hotel near West Point at the location now known as Cranston's. He was as good a bonifaceas he had been a steamboat man and laid up money every year, he died in 1864, the year his son entered West Point, and left the latter a small fortune though not nearly as large an amount as now is credited to the son. Its increase is set down to the fact that-whatever the elder Roe left was very carefully invested and that only a small part of the income derived from it was used for many years.
Not many anecdotes are afloat concerning General Roe, but they relate one incident in which he figured conspiciously with much credit to himself. It was in Oregon in 1869 that he had an opportunity to make the army's best record for individual long distance riding. At that time be was post adjutant at Camp Harney in the southeastern part of the Pacific coast's great Pine Tree State, the late Major Elmer Otis being in command. One day orders came to be transmitted at once to Camp Bidwell, California, to prevent an Indian uprising. Camp Warner was the nearest station en route, and it was 150 miles away, the intervening region belng an alkali country, ill supplied with good water. Roe volunteered to carry the dispatches and accompanied by a sergeant and a private, started away after an hour's preparation. Their horses weighed about 1,000 pounds each, and Roe, who weighed 180 pounds, was considered a heavy load for his steed. The time allowed for them to reach Camp Warner was 36 hours. Roe appreciated the importance of haste and they arrived in 24, 22 of which were passed in the saddle. Two of the horses, one being the lieutenants, showed no ill results of the hard usage to whic they had been subjected. The third had a sore back. From Warner, Roe went to Camp Bidwell in a wagon, reaching there the next-morning at not quite 12 hours earlier than had been expected.
Roe spent some time on the plains, but did not have a chance to make much of a record as an Indian fighter. Those who know him well believe he'd have displayed the right sort of stuff had the occasion presented itself. He was with the lamented General Terry when the gallant but rash Custer met his fate on the Little Big Horn river. Almost at the moment of the beginning of Custer's last fight General Terry ordered Roe to go ahead of the column the following day and establish communication with Custer, and in due time Roe and a detachment started on their mission. Of course it was unfulfilled, for Custer and his men were wiped out hours before Roe got under way.
General Roe is proof of exceptions to the alleged rule that to be prominent in Gotham you must be born outside. He is a native of the tow, and with the exception of his West Point training his education was received here.[/color]
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 18:57:18 GMT -6
Long-distance riding by Charles King, US Army 5th Cavalry (Montana 1876). Illustrations by Frederic Remington. www.archive.org/stream/longdistanceridi00kingrich#page/n1/mode/2upThe records of the cavalry regiments on duty during the Indian campaigns furnish numerous instances of long rides. Charles F. Roe gained the army's best record for individual long distance riding in 1869, Camp Harney, Oregon to Bidwell, Calif. LINK - boards.history.com/topic/Indian-Wars/The-Power-Of/520006263&messageID=520785608A plucky ride was that of Lieutenant James F. Bell, Seventh cavalry, through the Bad Lands of Dakota. Going into Medora, a little town at the crossing of the Little Missouri by the Northern Pacific railway, he found important despatches for his brother officer, Lieutenant Garlington, then in the field, and, all alone, Bell rode away from Medora at sunrise on an August morning, covered fifty to fifty-five miles through the roughest country in the Northwest by noon, got a fresh mount in in Captain Varnum's camp, and just after sunset reached Garlington. The distance covered was at least one hundred miles, and the gait was trot or gallop all the way. In October, 1879, General Merritt led a battalion of 5th Cavalry on a still famous march to the relief of Captain Payne's command, surrounded and besieged by in the wilds of Colorado. Officer's CallAnother famous ride, one of the traditions of the old army, was that made by Lieutenant Samuel D. Sturgis, of the First Dragoons in January, 1855. Apache Indians raided within twenty miles of Santa Fe, killing several settlers and running off some sixty head of mules. Sturgis, with fifteen men was sent in pursuit when the hostiles had eighteen hours' start. His party followed for sixty hours, using every moment of light, halting when the pitch darkness compelled them to rest until sufficient light to follow the trail.In the fight that ensued three Mescalero died and all the mules recovered. Campaigning with Crook by Charles King, US Army 5th Cavalry (Montana 1876). www.archive.org/details/campaigningwithc00kingrich
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 19:12:04 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 20:31:06 GMT -6
hi darkcloud Your take is that the image within the red box is not a building but the raw ravine side. That would be Deep Ravine. I'll reconsider it.
It's a structure of some kind. A building. You owe me an apology for post #38 I've actually had that discussion with others, it's terrain, it's railway related and .............. it isn't there. It doesn't fit into what is known so - it doesn't exist. It isn't actually there and .... i'm nuts. So i've done some research which l thought might interest people with serious interest in the battle. Hmmmm............. Considerable freighting and haulage interests developed to supply demand as the new Forts were built and trading resumed as the tribes were subdued. The failed enterprise of Old Fort Pease resumed and the Baker's Battlefield site became one of several small settlements. Hopefully somewhere there will be detail of the shipment and operation of these lumber mills amongst records. Black & Daniels, Mr. Black having taken over much of his father's business in Bozeman opened a post office on Pease bottom, opposite the mouth of the Big Horn river and trafficked with the Indians. He put in a ferry and later sent the first steamboat load of robes and furs to St. Louis. In 1877 Black & Daniels moved all their stock to Bozeman. The following year they sold out to W. H. Randall.
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Post by BrokenSword on Sept 5, 2009 8:34:27 GMT -6
I think it's Noah's Ark. Just a guess.
BS
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 5, 2009 9:05:28 GMT -6
Yes. A four hundred foot long sawmill (made out of?) designed by Pei, or maybe Phillip Johnson with sweeping roof, built on a near island surrounded by about 100 trees total. You'd think the army would note the mileage to Ft. Custer and place the saw mill where it would, you know, be handy. It's also a stealth saw mill as it was totally ignored by the hostile Cheyenne when they spent time there, so cleverly disguised with dirt.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 5, 2009 9:58:40 GMT -6
That large stock of timber was taken from the valley is fact of both Cheyenne, Lacota, Absaroka and military record. The picture, raises some further issues it not being a summer time or autumn shot. No foilage. The picture was a mystery.
Billings - County Seat and NPR main trading post. Before Billings was created, the Crow Indians used to come to the area annually during their nomadic travels. They referred to the area occupied by Billings and Coulson as “mun-a-pusk-a”, meaning “the place where they saw wood.” Several saw mills operated in the area, following in P. W. McAdow’s first mill in 1878. Billings, was more commonly called, “Place of the Skulls”, by the Crow Indians, following a severe smallpox outbreak in their village that was located on the bluffs southeast of Billings. Accounts vary and it is not known for certain where the village was actually located. It is generally accepted that the bluffs southeast of Billings are correctly called “Sacrifice Cliff” or as Suicidal Cliff, where the Indians drove blindfolded horses over the edge of the cliff to appease angry spirits, or to simply avoid the horrors of painful death by smallpox. One of the main reasons that Crow Indians came to the Billings area was to hold horseracing contests. Foot races were also popular. A white man Charles Schneider eventually defeated their foot race champion, ‘Shorty’. In 1859, Chief Red Bear told Captain Reynolds (from a geological expedition) that the Crows were a small tribe, with sioux on one side and Blackfeet on the other. He said they wanted to be friends with the white men, but white men were not to build houses here. In 1879 Chief Plenty Coups and other tribal representatives signed a treaty that removed Cooke City and areas west of Boulder River from their reservations.
I know where the timber went, where it came from and how it got where it went, with a bit of luck i'll put up the payroll and tax invoices shortly.
- CLICK - I'd guess in the run of things and respect that there was for Custer amongst the Montana settlers that the timber Fort Custer was constructed of was 'Holy Wood'. ;D One of the Officers' quarters was moved to the town of Fort Smith and and is a managed B&B. The rest of the buildings were sold at auction and most were used to help build the town of Hardin two miles northeast of the site of the actual fort. A replica of the fort is at the Bighorn County Historical Museum. A D.A.R. stone monument is at the actual site.FORT CUSTER, on the bluff above the confluence of the Big Horn and Little Horn Rivers was built by Col. George P. Buell in 1877, the year after the Custer battle. Soldiers had plenty of time for entertainment and John Maguire, pioneer impresario, visited the fort on tours of the settlements. In March 1880 he presented Captain John Smith, using Absaroka in the cast. At the point where Pocahontas was pleading for the life of 'John Smith', a Crow burst into the theater shouting that a band of Sioux had stolen the Crow horses from the hitching rack outside. While the bugler blew boots and saddles Chief Plenty Coups called a hurried war council and the Indians joined the cavalry in pursuit of the thieves.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 5, 2009 17:20:58 GMT -6
At pages 235 & 255 of his book are maps P.W. Norris made, page 235 is worthy of interest to any who might feel his work lacking or dilatory. He wrote a guide-book of the Yellowstone national park in 1883. It was Norris, who recovered Charlie Reynolds headless remains from the valley and buried him in Yellowstone Park, probably at the site of an old hunting lodge he kept there. Norris was a good friend to Reynolds and quite a guy in his own right. His book is full of information LBH - but seriously hard work reading it. [/color][/quote] THE "OLD RUIN" - CLICK - In 1880 Yellowstone Park superintendent P.W. Norris was exploring an area east of Mt. Washburn when he discovered the remains of an old cabin. So old was this building, that he estimated that it had been constructed sometime between 1820-1830. In his opinion, it had been built by early fur trappers. A man who had worked with trappers in his early years, Norris was familiar with their construction techniques. Based on the style of construction, he believed that it must have been a relic of the Hudson Bay Company of Montreal. So important was this piece of early park history that Norris included on his maps for several years. Today the status of these ruins is unknown. It is unlikely that there is much of anything left after so many years. However, metal objects may still be retrievable with the use of a metal detector. The site is located in a bear management area and thus is almost surely to have been left undisturbed. One brief search in 1999 yielded no information. If anything of this cabin can be located in the future it would represent the oldest known Euro-American cultural site ever found in Yellowstone.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 5, 2009 17:55:56 GMT -6
Hi jody - It took me a while to find this Views north ยป CLICK [/URL] What you are after and simply terrific photography as well. When first l saw this picture, l realised that Captain Weir certainly, would not have been much of a soldier sitting around up here for an hour and more. I reckon he was a little bit further north, myself. Curiosity if nothing else. At RCoI, Lt. Hare was questioned in quite some detail about the 'B' crossing or watering place on Maguires map. He was familiar with and able to detail the place quite thoroughly. Therefore his information regarding the advance from Reno Hill to support Custer makes very interesting viewing. He marked the extent of the advances on a map, which is here. - CLICK - That looks like Luce & N-C Ridge territory to me - still what do l know? ;D [/b]
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Post by herosrest on Sept 6, 2009 7:09:52 GMT -6
Another interesting issue is the location of Sanderson's cordwood monument in photos taken by Morrow. In the first photo the monument is clearly being filled with horse bones which Sandy said was part of Sanderson's orders to clean up the battlefield. East of the present day monument is where they found evidence of the horse remains being buried. It sure wouldn't make sense to put horse bones on top of human bones at the time. Since I believe they moved the human bones under the monument later on, it wouldn't make sense to put human bones on top of the old horse bone pile. Kinda suggests to me that the monument location has moved a little and maybe the present day location of where the buried horse bones are is where the cordwood monument was but maybe someone has studied that issue already. And what of the the horse bones in the Keogh and Calhoun sectors? Did they leave humans half buried and then go the trouble of hauling horse bones all over the battlefield or are there other piles of horse bones? bc bc. l was contemplating your thoughts on the cordwood monument, Jerome Greene and Don Rickey have published work on the battlefield history. As many as 70 horses killed on the field is amongst record although confusion exists there, as everywhere. A horse cemetary was discovered and found to contain some 10 animals remains. That is towards LSH, and leaves a good number unaccounted for. Remains of 4 or 5 animals have been found over the years in Deep Coulee, one troopers burial also. It would seem a significant number of horse remains are unnacounted for, which, quite honestly is a ridiculous interest, but bears upon events at Calhoun Hill and Finley Ridge and spooked horses which ran and were shot down.
I can see what l see in the photograph, it is a lonely experience flying in the face of accepted wisdom. Wisdom though is an art form.
Upset and discontent with the condition of graves and scattered remains was a problem that wouldn't go away because of the nature of Montana's weather. Unable to provide graves 6' deep, the ensuing problems were inevitable. Hailstorms and running water were the problem and one that could not be resolved with a recovering of earth. It was simply dissolved and blasted away by rain and hail.
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Post by bc on Sept 6, 2009 8:49:39 GMT -6
I've been reading more about the cordwood monument. After being placed in 1879 to hold the horse bones, it was removed when they laid the stone foundations for the granite monument placed in 1881. I'm not sure what they did, but the easiest and best way I could see to get rid of a cordwood pile full of horse bones would be to strike a match. So I suppose the monuments could be at the same spot or very close. Still don't know if the horse cemetery from the 1940's is the same horses or different ones but I suspect they are different ones.
I also learned the bodies of the soldiers are not under the granite monument. They placed the monument first in 1881 and then trenched around the 4 sides to bury the soldiers in the trenches around it. However with all the trouble gone to in order to build a base and put up that heavy monument, you couldn't trench very deep around the four sides in fear of the monument falling over. The dirt mounded around the granite marker suggest the trenches were not very wide however.
bc
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 6, 2009 10:07:34 GMT -6
It would be unreasonable to think that many whole skeletons existed by the time of the monument. The needs were probably considerably less than that for the 190 odd whole corpses. For one thing, they missed a bunch or were too lazy to dig all up. For another, those not well buried - which apparently constituted a vast majority - would have been desecrated and/or carried away by coyotes or wolves or the like.
A skeleton of a horse is still a lot of bones, and the cordwood structure could not have held very many. One does not get the feeling that the Army's enthusiasm for the job improved much over June 27th, 1876, and everyone gives the impression of having done the minimal that could be argued improved things. The cordwood monument probably just held those visible around the crest of LSH so further photos of Custer's marker didn't look like a boneyard.
That would apply to the soldiers' skeletons as well, given the number that have turned up since, and the description of Custer's, if it was Custer's.
There were horse bones on Reno field for Morehouse's photos in 1901, and probably decades longer. That being so, the remaining horse bones on Custer's field when gathered would have required a much larger pit, and there reasonably could have been a few such pits.
If General Miles, stymied by low water, chose the eastern side of the LBH rather than the flat land on the west for freight, he wasn't bright.
What do you guys think a 'portable lumber mill' would look like? And why would they harvest trees for Ft. Custer from 20 miles away, avoiding the others far closer which they'd want down anyway? Ft. Custer was not Phil Kearny by any stretch.
So long as any basis is Norris' slight improvement on MacGuire, any resulting theory is toast.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 6, 2009 10:24:22 GMT -6
Some of the very early pictures of the monument show the extent and possibility for a trench surrounding the plinth, which was exposed and suffed damage from frost, i'd imagine. The pictures are many, a few of the actual work underway after the monument was erected. Curley features in a few of those pictures. Here are some online.
www.friendslittlebighorn.com/ca%201883.jpg
www.antiquephotographics.com/images/ForSale/Indians2/iz305.jpg
www.friendslittlebighorn.com/ca-prior-1886-may-be-Curly.jpg
www.friendslittlebighorn.com/ca%201894%20H.R.%20Locke%20LSH.jpg
This pic then gives an idea of how the hill site, developed. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/1940%20by%20Ken%20Roahen%20or%201931%20by%20Col.%20Moore.jpg
The question of how thorough and professional those attending the graves were, crossed my mind. Hence the discovery of weather as the real culprit of the disarray. There was a serious and public concern at the continual distress of the field and senior ranking generals were there, checking out progress. Those re-burial guys and those maintaining the field put in serious effort, if for no other reason than the boss was hovering around. All the top brass were out there, back and forth and news reporters sniffing a story. Obviously the weather was beyond a decent paragraph of News headline.
An enduring legacy of LBH is the tradition of care for fallen and wounded, 'everybody goes home'. A fitting tribute to a place dear to american hearts.
One of my odd thoughts, "The land of the free and the 'brave' ". Was that simple inspiration or a deeply meaningful statement of inclusion.
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