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Post by wolfgang911 on Aug 14, 2009 17:45:56 GMT -6
there are no figthing scenes with saber so maybe the first drawings derive from a parade he witnessed
as for the hoof prints they are indeed intruiging, seems like symbols of pursuit of many horseback warrior and the 3 groups of shadowed hoof prints are maybe reno benteen custer ?
in anycase they hade a specific meaning, he was noting drawing them for decoration
does mallery say anything about them?
as for the number of dead ndn vs dead soldiers : there are 4 times more dead soldiers together (with some dead arikara?) painted as ndn..
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Aug 16, 2009 18:30:35 GMT -6
While it may be true that there was no fighting involving sabers in this battle, perhaps this weapon was used in past battles in which the Native Americans must have remember the "Long Knives" as weapons of mass destruction.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Aug 16, 2009 18:41:39 GMT -6
Thier shades must wander the battlefield. I so much agree. Please don't laugh but, on my one and only trip their with my husband, I seemed to feel the dark sorrow that seemed to permeate every ravine, knoll, and blade of grass of the field of battle. |
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Post by clw on Sept 4, 2009 16:07:40 GMT -6
Interesting observations --
The horses are colored by troop in the first few drawings. C troop (sorrels and duns) and E troop (greys) really stand out. There are five troops pictured. Coincidence?
The tipi density is amazing. The backward lodge may well be a Heyoka lodge. Or it might depict the council lodge Red Horse mentioned in his narrative.
Seems to me some of the drawings with the dead horses must depict LSH. All the dead horses are tackless. Since their tails aren't war knotted, they must be cavalry mounts. Lots of saddles and bridles must have been acquired that day, yet we never hear it mentioned. At least I haven't.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 22:59:06 GMT -6
Hi everyone - These pictograph drawings are wonderful, a real delight to contemplate. Very well done.
Because so much is made of color and horse color in particular, i decided to get some kind of grounding in the topic. Here is my honest conclusion, it is awkward to realise its implication but l welcome criticism because it is an accepted wisdom that horse color descriptions present significant evidence of cavalry manouver about the Custer battlefield.
Enormous problems exist within the diversity of refence in english language to horse color. Accounts left by 'Two Moon' repeatedly and consistently are faulty and unreliable in terms specific to color. Whether it be in reference for example to 'RED' cavalry stripes which is plain simple error or by 'subsequent' reference to an event, such as grey or white horses becoming red horses.
I do not speak Cheyenne but decided to try for a basic grasp for some kind of understanding. Color terms are a nightmare. Amongst reference material, obviously l looked to the term sorrel and discovered that the term is as likely a Blonde Sorrel, ie Claybank or bay as to be chestnut or Blood colored. The experience of 'Two Moons' horse colors changing red to grey relating the same event discredits reliance upon the grey horse troop in translated Cheyenne reference.
Setback and nightmare for established research that this conclusion is, doesn't detract from the reality of the matter. Grey is not even a light color as soon as you consider the proposition, it ranges through shade in entirety, midnight to silver grey. Aural tone is everything to the Cheyenne speech and similarities abound. The problem is not unique to 'Two Moons" 5 minutes googling up horse pictures and decscriptions shows the fascination and individual nature of it to be complete non-science in english. Here is about as far as l got with the Cheyenne language.
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vé'ho'évo'ha Top quality horse; beautiful horse.
hémotséhno'ha stud.
-he'hemêšéoná have speckled rump; be an Appaloosa horse.
he'hemêšéónâtse the Appaloosa (horse).
There is much debate over words for brown.
Ma'êheóvo'hame Orange Horse. can be a horse name.
-mo'ôhtávêheóvó brown. Variant: -mo'kôhtávêheóvó.
É-mo'ôhtávêheóvo It is brown. Literally: blackish-yellow.
-heóvó 'yellow' probably originally included hue toward brown ;
-môséanahe brown. Vé'késo é-môséanahe.
-môséanó vii. brown; old leather color, buckskin color.
É-môséáno It is brown/it is old leather (or buckskin) in color.
mosé(šk)an- brown.
môséškáne- buckskin.
-heóvo'ha na. sorral; yellow horse.
-hohkó'sová He (for example, a horse) has a chestnut-colored hide.
-Heóvo'häme na. Yellow Horse.
-vó'neová vai. have bay colored hide. esp. of a horse.
É-vó'neöva. He is bay colored in his hide. tsé-vó'néóvâtse a bay (horse).
Variant: -vó'nevová.
Black - enjoy.......................... l simply am lost.
-otá'tovová vai. have blue hide; have blue fur. See: -vóhpe'xoené.
É-otá'tovöva He has blue hide (for example, horse with dark markings).
tsé-pó'kevovó'hásêstse vai. gray pinto.
tsé-vovó'hásêstse vai. pinto.
-vovó'hasé vai. be a pinto (horse).
É-vovó'háse. He's a pinto. Hestotseho é-vó'hasóho.
His horse (lit. pet) is a pinto.
Pó'eta Gray. name of a dog.
-vóhpo whitish or grayish-white, light in color.
vóhpo. It is light in color.
vó'komó ‘white’.
vóhpo'ha na. white horse.
-pó'ková be gray furred.
ma'e- red; reddish. Cheyenne concept of red has blood prototype.
É-ma'ê-heóvo It is orange.
-ma'êhahénohá vti. color s.t. red.
tsé-má'o vii. that which is red.
Mo'kôhtávo'ha na. Black Horse.
Vá'kôhé'haméhe Bobtailed Horse.
vóhpo'ha na. white horse
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 23:09:13 GMT -6
Here, in a light spirited way, is a take on the horse color and battalion assignments, it's to smile at.
Exceptions often prove the rule.
- Pvt. Roman Rutten says Francis T. Hughes of Co. L was the last man of 5 cos. coming down Sundance Creek.
He had a big black horse which he could not control and could not ride him in the company and so followed behind. Walter Camp Collection
This is a fantastic breakthrough,  Company L were last in the column and riding Black horses.
Hmmmmmm, not that simple is it. Was F.T. Hughes trailing his company or the column.
Hmmmm...........
Gray horse Company were in the middle of the column. * * E * L.
So who was senior to Calhon? Keogh, Yates, Custer.
Kanipe reported the column in line, E F L I C.
There were two battalions, so it's Keogh or Yates.
* * E F L or * * E I L. Which generate I C E F L or F C E I L.
One solution seems familiar. I don't think senior officers ate dust.
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DEPLOY FOR COMBAT - YIELDS
I C E - F L ________________ F C E - I L
E C I - L F ________________ E C F - L I
F L - I C E ________________ I L - F C E
L F - E C I ________________ L I - E C F
Now, if it was actually Company F, that rode the gray horses..... which l have read, here and there...
then, erm... what color grey were they - Charcoal  Battleship??? Speckled???
Would you, short of mounts and raiding from your Garry Owen players,
break up the band so to speak and distribute a working and practised unit
willy 'neighly' or keep them as a unit and reoganise 23 other platoons,
that are being resupplied anyway,around the band box horses?
Hmmm...... aspirin anyone???
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Post by HinTamaheca on Sept 10, 2009 7:27:08 GMT -6
It would be wise to remember that artist Red Horse was Mniconjou Lakota, not Cheyenne.
Also, keep in mind that the colors chosen for pictograph drawings in general were limited to the colors of the pencils that were available to the artist at the time.
In addition, the colors chosen for horses that were overlapping each other, often would represent an artistic choice to use contrast in distiguishing one from the other, rather than realistic colors.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 11, 2009 18:43:12 GMT -6
Hi HinTamaheca, acknowledged, l tried for a basic grasp of languange and went with Cheyenne, if it was a mistake bringing it to the topic, my apologies. Translation and sign talk interpretations seem to have caused many a fumble for those trying to create a written account of events.
Frequently, l don't understand people i've known all my life. 
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newn
Junior Member
Posts: 71 
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Post by newn on Nov 17, 2014 18:53:55 GMT -6
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Post by noggy on Jul 26, 2017 5:39:37 GMT -6
Red Horse`s number of Indian casualties must surely be among the highest ever presented, if not the highest?
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Post by nomann on Aug 30, 2020 8:56:45 GMT -6
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"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they
Company L were last in the column and riding Black horses. 
Battleship??? Speckled??? 
