Where are those damn packs?!!!

[WY Man]

Since I'm kind of new to this board, and Custer research overall, this may be a topic that has already been discussed in one form or another, many times over. Anyway, just some ideas of mine, and I may be way off base, but I'd like some imput.

I wonder if Custer thought that if he could just capture the non-combatants fleeing north from Reno's attack, that it really didn't matter how big the village was, or how many warriors it held. He would then hold the upper hand; and with captive women and children, he could negotiate on his own terms. And, he may have been right, except he wasn't able to head off the non-combatants. He tried to cross the river at a point where the warriors were gathered, well hidden, and Custer was ambushed. This must have been shortly after giving Cooke the message to have the packs sent in. I think that up until his end on the top of Last Stand Hill, Custer was watching and waiting for those damn packs, and at the same time he hoped he could be seen from the distance. I also wonder if he might have sent Calhoun off in that direction, to try and locate the pack train. Any thoughts?

[crzhrs]

Up to that point Custer had not fired a single shot . . . so he had plenty of ammo available.

Now . . . did Custer mean bring packs for the extra ammo or to ensure they were safe from being taken by warriors?

From accounts by Kanipe & Martini the village was ripe for the taking, yet Custer did not do so. If he was going after non-coms it could have been very messy and bloody. Did Custer really want that on his hands, especially after the Washita controversy? Or did he really care?

I think Custer should have ridden into the village (again accounts state village devoid of warriors) taken the village proper and if he could get some non-coms, all the better.

By taking the village he would deprive the Indians of all their possessions leaving them few options but to come into reservations.

Or was Custer hell-bent for a glorious victory?

[AZ Ranger]

If you want the packs to catch up then stay put. Closing up to make sure they are secure makes more sense to me.

[WY Man]

May 29, 2009 6:24:34 GMT -6 crzhrs said:

Up to that point Custer had not fired a single shot . . . so he had plenty of ammo available.

Now . . . did Custer mean bring packs for the extra ammo or to ensure they were safe from being taken by warriors?

You're absolutely right that Custer hadn't used any ammo when he ordered up the packs, but he sent the order for the packs as we all know. Its very possible that he was concerned about the Indians capturing the packs, but another concern may have been that he had already seen Reno's troops fighting in the valley, and seeing the size of the warrior forces he was soon to encounter, ordered the packs brought forward. Obviously he had by that time seen the village. ("Benteen- Come on. Big Village. Be quick. Bring packs. P.S. Bring packs.") I believe that Custer intended to support Reno, but he was cut off before any of his soldiers could enter the village. And the packs never came. Custer may have intended to divide and distribute the ammunition from a depot, as needed, but I'm only speculating.

May 29, 2009 6:24:34 GMT -6 crzhrs said:

From accounts by Kanipe & Martini the village was ripe for the taking, yet Custer did not do so. If he was going after non-coms it could have been very messy and bloody. Did Custer really want that on his hands, especially after the Washita controversy?

I think Custer was going after the non-combatants, but there is nothing to indicate that he meant to strike or harm them, but he did want to capture them. If he could have caught them though, there might have been a bloody mess as you suggest. Not all soldiers displayed restraint on previous occasions when Indian villages were captured. However, many bloody attrocities were committed during the Indian wars by Indian scouts, and Custer had previously dismissed the Crow scouts, and assigned the Arickaras to capture the Indian horses prior to his attack on the north end of the village. So he may have been trying to avoid the mistakes of the past.

May 29, 2009 6:24:34 GMT -6 crzhrs said:

I think Custer should have ridden into the village (again accounts state village devoid of warriors) taken the village proper and if he could get some non-coms, all the better.

Custer's troops did try to enter the village, but were overpowered by the huge numbers of warriors who knew of their approach, and had hidden in the brush and pockets on the east side of the river. That is why the village was devoid of warriors, the warriors were between the village and Custer! Custer's objective was now an impossibility. The soldiers' horses (probably famished for water) broke and ran to the river, leaving many of the soldiers afoot. These men were easily shot down along the ridge, above the river. (See Little Soldier's account in "Drawing Battle Lines," Michael Donahue, p. 236)

[sherppa]

Just a thought. The village was largely devoid of Warriors, the force that first engaged Custer was a smaller force that was armed with repeating rifles, and in a covered defesive position. Giving them a definite advantage and forcing Custer back and futher north never to get any closer to the village then the head of Deep Ravine.

[AZ Ranger]

I don't think Custer saw the whole village when Martin was sent. The vacant part could be just one camp. Crazy Horse was in his camp getting ready seems the intel about vacant is not correct.

If Reno had not engaged then they missed seeing the Indians heading toward Reno. If Custer sees it after they left for Reno then he could not say we caught them napping.

[wolfgang911]

I think this is for once a refreshing interesting view WYman that if true explains a lot.

Another brave deed of Custer then, capturing women and children to be able to negotiate...
Well your theory sounds sort of Washita where Eliott made the experience of fighting the warriors till death with his men, while Custer did the family round up, so makes sense to me!

[Reddirt]

Actually, it may not have been such a bad idea after all. The capturing of hostages may have convinced the warriors to acquiesce to Custer's demands (whatever they may have been) without the tremendous lost of life that did occur.

[crzhrs]

Or maybe not. At the Washita Custer had captured many Cheyenne but Indians rushed to attack Custer anyway.

Trying to capture non-coms at the LBH may have been a blood-bath, something Custer would not want on his hands, especially after the the controversy at the Washita. Capturing non-coms may not have been in Custer's best interest . . . however, capturing the village proper with all his shelters and belongings may have been a better target. Without the necessities for survival the Indians may have come in to reservations sooner.

I think Custer should have taken the village while he had the chance rather than waiting around for whatever reason.

[Reddirt]

With the greatest respect, I'd like to make a point with you. Most accounts tell us that less than an hour after the attack began, all warriors in the area were either dead or fled, leaving Custer with fifty-three prisoners. Black Kettle's camp was at the end of a trail of villages over seven miles long just chock full of warriors. Warriors coming from these villages in response to the sounds of battle killed Maj. Elliot and his men.

Custer soon began noticing the increasing gathering of warriors on the ridges north and south of the village. According to Charles J. Brill, Custer, Black Kettle, and the Fight On The Washita...These gathering Indians were afraid to rush the village, "for fear of bringing death to those women and children held captive by Custer. They contented themselves with repeated attempts to draw soldiers out of their protected position.

I realize that many other factors may have played into this but, the fact is Custer managed to escape with his prisoners.

I agree with you 100% that had Custer tried to do the same thing at the Big Horn battle that it may have resulted in a blood bath because there were certainly a lot more non-coms to capture. I also think that you are right about Custer taking the village while the "skillet" was hot. Waiting around just didn't work for him.

[AZ Ranger]

What he did, didn't work either

[Reddirt]

Right! I don't think anything he may have tried would have worked. I wonder what would have happened if Custer had placed his forces in plain sight then, with a small escort, then opened negotiations under a white flag?

[AZ Ranger]

Custer believed that they would run therefore the split of the regiment. I doubt if Reno had sent a detail with a white flag they would have survived. The victory against Crook was fresh in their minds.

[Melani]

I don't think Custer would have entertained the idea of negotiations for one second. He was bent on another great "victory" like Washita, to restore his standing with his bosses. The only thing that would have averted the disaster at all might have been to keep the regiment together, instead of dividing it as he did, and that probably would have resulted in a messy standoff.

[AZ Ranger]

The pack train could not move any faster than 5-6 miles per hour even if well trained animals were used. We know there were some pack mules but there were a lot of wagon mules which had not developed the gait that the pack mules used.

I do not believe the village was empty only that part that Custer saw. Crazy Horse had to be there somewhere since he did not chase Reno until he exited the timber. Sitting Bull never left the village I believe.

My current belief is around 2,500 in the fighting force. The closer to the village the wider the age span for the fight force. Even at 61 years of age you are not coming into my house unwelcomed without resistance.

AZ Ranger