|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 22, 2009 13:39:25 GMT -6
I agree forensics do not determine that an artifact occurred anywhere. I like to think that forensics means that if two different persons use the same technique the results would be the same. There is a court dictated Frye standard for admissibility of evidence when using a technique or equipment.
If Varnum says he can tell the difference in sound form a 55 grain charge and 70 grain it must be qualified. I think he is referring to the difference between subsonic and sonic sounds a bullet make through air. The .45-55 would be marginal at best and over 100 yards distance from the fired location it would be subsonic. The .45-70 up to 200 yards might be sonic. The .45-70 fired at 400 yards distance would not sound any different then the .45-55 at 100 yards unless I am missing the science here.
AZ Ranger
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 22, 2009 13:42:54 GMT -6
I wouldn't know either way, but just saying it's possible, and I'm far from certain they've taken the metal detectors to the surrounding areas of Reno's position, absent Sharpshooter's.
|
|
|
Post by biggordie on Feb 22, 2009 18:16:00 GMT -6
Hank Weiberet did his metal-detecting and collecting along the edge of the bluffs, outside the NM boundaries, and along the ridges to the east and south, also outside the NM boundaries. He also collected down the bluff slopes [outside the NM boundaries].
He never discovered a .45-70 carrtidge or case, although he thought that that's what they were, until he established the difference. Everybody used to refer to them as .45-70s, conceivably after Varnum.
Jason Pitsch collected several hundred cases on his farm, which encompasses parts of the Reno skirmish lines and retreat route. J.W. Vaughn beat him by more than a couple of dozen years. Neither one of them found anything other that .45-55s, although Vaughn thought he might have found a couple of .45-70s on the western hills [and later changed his mind]..
None of these guys found any head-stamped cases either, as far as I can tell.
Gordie
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 22, 2009 18:30:41 GMT -6
The size of the case makes it a .45/70, we're told. What the load was can only by known by indications on the copper. We've read on this board, I'm quite sure, that over time indications of wadding can go away, lost even to science over 130 years. Found indications of wadding make it a 55, but lack of wadding indication means only that and does not prove it was a 70 load. I understood that some cases were considered 70 load absent evidence to the contrary. Not true?
It makes me uneasy that we're including Weibert family findings and those found in the mid-20th century and later with the ones found and collected by correct scientific method. What coldly objective source has authenticated them?
|
|
|
Post by El Crab on Feb 22, 2009 20:07:28 GMT -6
Perhaps its just me, but I always thought Varnum was referring to the Springfield carbine in that quote. That the Zing! came from the warriors firing Springfields at the soldiers, with the grain just being a fact added in. I never read that and thought he meant the .45/55 and .45/70 had different sounds.
In other words, they were used to hearing a certain sound of shots whizzing by. But when they heard the Zing! instead of the Zip!, that was a captured Springfield carbine instead of the multitude of weapons the Indians had.
I know he mentions the grain, but I just never thought he meant it as being the difference. I always thought the Zip! was the generic sound for various rounds, and the Zing! was a clearly distinctive sound the Springfield rounds produced.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 22, 2009 20:32:37 GMT -6
As it is written he means the carbine AND the 70 grain load together. Unless he mentions this in earlier correspondence previous to Graham, it could be the variant memory of an old man. On the other hand, he was competent and it's the only remark he adds when returning the manuscript.
So, on reflection, you probably are correct, since he thought everyone with the 7th had the same ammo, but states "we" took, which at least means himself, 70 grain. He'd know what he had, surely.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 22, 2009 21:33:06 GMT -6
The Indians had .50-70s before the fighting began and according to Scott and Fox they had at least 30 different .50-70 weapons. They should sound close to the .45/55-70 Iwould think.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 23, 2009 7:09:34 GMT -6
I surely would not know; Varnum seems to think he knows, though.
|
|
|
Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 23, 2009 7:25:56 GMT -6
The 44 rimfires and .44-40 should sound different I would guess. I am not sure one can tell the difference between .50-70 and .45-70 by listening.
|
|
|
Post by conz on Feb 23, 2009 10:15:00 GMT -6
The 44 rimfires and .44-40 should sound different I would guess. I am not sure one can tell the difference between .50-70 and .45-70 by listening. I believe the sound, downrange, would be due to both size and velocity of the bullet, with emphasis on velocity more than size. So I agree that the difference in grain between these weapons would create a difference in sound, more than any difference between a .44, .45, or .5 bullet. .44 Winchester repeaters were pea shooters compared to the heavier Springfields, especially if all or most of the Troopers were carrying rifle cartridges. The difference in sound should be quite distinctive. Clair
|
|
|
Post by bc on Feb 23, 2009 10:56:51 GMT -6
Sounds like we need to conduct a bullet sound test. We take the biggest skeptic among us. Stand him up at a nearby mountain bluff top. Then begin firing with various caliber rifles from various ranges of 100 to 500 yards aimed so the rounds go past the ears. After firing a few thousand rounds for effect, we can then ask what sound the bullets made when they went by. I could try to borrow a springfield for such a test. At the same time, we can determine how accurate the springfield was.
bc
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 23, 2009 11:21:26 GMT -6
www.dailycamera.com/news/2009/feb/21/edward-rozek-boulder-professor-obituary/You guys would have enjoyed chatting with Professor Rozek; many of us Boulderites did. Probably wouldn't have enjoyed joking about shooting people, though. He was such a pointy headed professor and all here in the People's Republic. You know. Soft. Don't worry, he was safely conservative (in some ways) and a Republican supporter, so you don't need to worry about his politics.
|
|
|
Post by Diane Merkel on Feb 23, 2009 11:31:06 GMT -6
The comments section of that page says it all. He was extremely well respected by those with differing viewpoints. Quite a man.
|
|
|
Post by Jas. Watson on Feb 23, 2009 12:16:35 GMT -6
OK I am looking at several cases from there (and a couple pistol ones too). Now tell me what I am looking for to be able to tell the difference. They have their (bullet) ends flattened a bit but I can still see somewhat inside them. I have a lab--the state museum conservation lab here, and have unlimited access to the state archaeology lab as I used to run it for some years. Yes, these are genuine cases. Let's see what we can see. What am I looking for?
JW~
|
|
|
Post by bc on Feb 23, 2009 12:59:20 GMT -6
JW, Can you post some pics or email them to someone who can?
bc
|
|