Reno's attack questions

[desertlobster]

1. Was the alignment McIntosh on the left, French on the right, and Moylan in reserve?

2. The right wing actually crossed to the east bank of the river? Some troopers mention it, but others don't bother? Maybe it wasn't an impediment at all?

3. Anybody ever thought of how things might have turned out differently if Reno's and Benteen's men went in together? Wasn't the problem that the Indians flanked the left wing? Wouldn't Benteen's addition have extended the line enough? So maybe the splitting of troops into two pieces wouldn't have been bad, but 3 groups was the killer.

4. Who ordered the troopers to dismount and go into a skirmish line? Was this just a lack of aggressiveness or was the sight of hordes of Indians a shock and it was just a reaction of the lead troopers instead of an order?

5. Some troopers said that they could have held off the Indians indefinitely from the timber. If they hadn't retreated, doesn't this help Custer immensely?

6. Could Reno's men see Benteen's dust? If so, might not Benteen have known that Reno was attacking?

[George Mabry]

#4. Reno ordered his battalion to dismount. This is not indicative of a lack of aggression on his part. His mission was to pursue and engage the hostiles which is what he did. I would think that the number of hostiles to his front is what prompted Reno to dismount and fight as skirmishers. It was a good decision in my opinion.

#5. Common sense tells you that no one could hold off the Indians indefinitely. One of the most debated subjects about this battle is how long Reno could have/should have held his position in the timber. There is obviously no clear cut answer. Your opinion is as good as anyone else’s. Ask yourself the question: how many Indians were there? My opinion is that there were more than enough Indians to keep Reno bottled up in the timber and handle Custer. .

#6. I would doubt that Reno’s men could see Benteen’s dust. Their attention was elsewhere plus their own position would have been so enveloped with smoke and dust that seeing dust on the horizon would have been unlikely. Benteen’s men might have been able to see dust on the horizon but all that would tell them is that something was moving around. It wouldn’t be indicative of an attack.

George

[clw]

#5 is probably the biggest what if, if you're into what ifs. Personally I have enough trouble figuring out what was. Anyway, it's interesting to consider that both Sheridan and Miles firmly believed that Reno should have been able to hold his position. I recently read that Hare stated he was part of a discussion during the buriels in which Benteen and Weir commented that 'Reno should have stayed in the bottom'. And Gerard said as much at the RCOI. Lots of expertise in those opinions.

[biggordie]

#1 The initial formation of the command during the advance was M on the right, A on the left, and G in reserve. Part way down the bottom, G was brought up onto the left of the line [which indicates that the command was probably not galloping full out, and definitely not at the charge gait]. When the skirmish line was formed, the formation was reversed, with G on the right, A in the center, and M on the left. You might well ask yourself how this came to be.

#2 Never happened, unless somebody is referencing a dry creek bed. Some of the Rees were on the right side of the river, chasing after Lakota horses.

#3 I would guess that a great many people have thought about "what if" as far as this scenario is concerned. You'll probably find one or more threads devoted to this very topic somewhere on these boards. My own opinion is that the warriors would merely have circled farther around to the left, via the high ground there; sent fighters around the right flank via the bluffs, and circled the line in that manner - with a sufficient force in front to prevent any RAPID change from dismounted skirmish line to mounted advance.

If the two battalions had attempted to storm into the camps, there's likely to have been an extra hundred or so dead left in the valley, and the remnant still pursued to the bluffs. Reno and Benteen would then be up S Creek in terms of their future prospects. It might have turned into another aftermath of the Charge of the Light Brigade - "Not I, Sir, for I received my orders to charge the village in front of the troops, and......"

#4 See George's response.

#5 See George's response, and bear in mind, as those troops you say said what they said when they said it apparently did not, that the command had a finite supply of ammunition [half or so of which they supposedly shot away in about 25 minutes]. They probably could have stayed there until the ammo ran out, provided that they kept up a sufficient rate to keep the NDNs out of there. Recall that the woods position was too large to be defended by the number of men in Reno's command, unless the line was somehow consolidated. I'll leave that to the military experts on this forum, who no doubt can say how this could be accomplished, maybe by forming a moving square which does not move.

As George notes, there were enough warriors present to handle both Reno and Custer.

#6 No - Benteen was too far back for any of his dust to be visible, and the terrain would have made it difficult, even if there were no dust and gunsmoke down in the bottom.

Gordie

[desertlobster]

Is the area of timer still about the same as it was during the battle? A soldier commented that Indians were pointing at Benteen's dust cloud. He even said to Kamp that it was only this fact that kept the Indians at bay long enough so they could escape. Maybe fantasy.

[Dark Cloud]

When did the tale first appear? From who? Anything that first appears in Camp is suspect: it's about a half century after the fact, everyone's heard or read everyone else's stories. He himself may have had an opinion he sought support for. Old men get confused and/or like to tell stories. Nothing evil, just human.

Ignore ALL stories that first appear after 1879, arbitrarily at the closing of the RCOI. Anything said between the battle and the inquiry would have lots of living witnesses to contest tales, and utterly incompatable stories from battle is the norm, as it happens. You lose some likely true and interesting slants, but also most if not all of the nonsense.

If an Indian tale includes geographic names that appeared later than the battle, ranks, soldier names, or military terminology, it means their story is likely enhanced, often by the supposed translator or because they've heard the tale from other sources. If it includes highly specific predicate time flenses dependent upon the unique verbal abilities of the English "to be", or specific high numbers, or intricate recollections their language didn't have at the time, it is less than accurately obtained from their mouth. In many cases, word for word translations are not possible anyway and dependent upon aural sound interpretation, which leaves you in the debt of a translator, and this atop all else.

In any case, there is no Indian testimony at all. Only accounts that are often fourth hand or worse. None of the 'hostile' Indians who participated spoke English at the time, and may never have later in life. They remain highly interesting stories, and should be honored for that anyway, but it's not like they were able to be cross examined.

This was just another battle in our species history. We have lots and lots of info on how men fight, and history and statements by participants are pretty much of a piece. There are always exceptions, but every suspicious bone in your body should vibrate when stories step outside these known borders and seem to follow literary templates of European origin with Indians or soldiers awkwardly playing roles in Arthurian scenes or the Song of Roland or the Elder Edda or Greek and Roman myths. Also, beware the more masochistic Christ utilizations of sacrifice for the greater good, which people tried to append to Custer a few decades back. "Awkward" doesn't go nearly far enough when the official guide book featured near homoerotic drawings of Custer in death that recall Pietas and the more icky Victorian artists.

Also, I have no clue what this sentence means: "Is the area of timer still about the same as it was during the battle?"

[desertlobster]

Is it even there or has it been cultivated? Is it smaller, larger, etc. Do we know. Is there a prairie dog village? Can we walk it or is it private land?

[Melani]

Feb 2, 2009 11:03:42 GMT -6 Dark Cloud said:

Also, I have no clue what this sentence means: "Is the area of timer still about the same as it was during the battle?"

I believe "timer" is a typo for "timber."

[Dark Cloud]

I believe you correct, and it's so obvious now I apologize. Too much coffee is my story and I'm sticking to it.

[clansman]

I certainly don't think Reno could have held out in the timber indefinitely, no matter what Benteen and Weir said. If he had his command would have went the same way as Custers'. A coherent defence was out of the question against overwhelming numbers. Many of the troopers couldn't even hear the commands to dismount and remount so how were they to hear orders for a defence? It was every man for himself and they would have been picked off one by one. Renos' decision to make a run for the river was the right one, disorganised as it was.

[biggordie]

lobster pot:

It IS private land, and no you can't walk it, except with permission, otherwise you leave yourself open to prosecution for trespass, which in Montana means you're liable to get a rump full of either bird-shot or rock salt.

The timber is still there, in a form not recognizable as being the same place. Some has been cut down - for firewood, I would guess - and some has been hauled off to allow for cultivation, or other.

The prairie dog village has long since been poisoned out, I do believe - not particularly compatible with horses or cattle.

Gordie

[clansman]

It seems that only the Indians can live side by side with the prairie dogs.

[Dark Cloud]

They loved broken legs on their ponies as much as the Army loved broken legs on their mounts, so no, they didn't love them that much. Good arrow practice though.

In any case, they were nomads and could move away.

[zekesgirl]

Wonder if they taste like chicken..................

[biggordie]

Actually they taste like alligator or rattlesnake, same as the last chicken I et. Must be the in-breeding. Cute babies, though.

Gordie