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Post by bc on Dec 31, 2008 21:57:03 GMT -6
His mixed up provenance helps him in two ways. He can make a convincing enough story to convince the naive buyers on ebay and his gun show customers to buy and still feign ignorance. Then when dealing with a western artifact expert he can say they should have known better and still feign ignorance. Either way he will claim he had no intent to defraud. Reminds me of all the flintknappers who work the gun show circuit. They gin them out in bulk with a grinding wheel and then go sell them. I know of one honest one in the Trinidad, CO area who wouldn't pass his off as NA made but who knows about the others. Moral is to watch out about buying arrowheads. See a lot of flintknappers at the mountain man festivals.
In Nov. 1993 the Blackpipe State Bank was sued by the Feds for discrimination against the Indians in their lending policies including not accepting collateral on reservation property and charging Indians higher interest. They entered into a consent judgment and then the family owned bank was bought by a bank just south of them in Nebraska and the President and other officers were fired. They kept the same bank name.
If the fired president owned the artifacts, then they must have agreed to let them stay at the bank. I don't think the Twisted Pine Ranch just made it up. I'll be interested to hear what you find out if and/or when you call the bank on Friday.
Couple other things to think about: 1. These could be stolen items from the collection or somewhere else for that matter which is why the provenance has become so convoluted to cover up the theft. 2. If these items were recovered from the battlefield after it became a national park, then they would be federal property and some kind of provence would be needed to establish when and how they were recovered before becoming fed property.
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Jan 1, 2009 10:01:55 GMT -6
Gordie deserves his own sitcom. Please put me on the list for some of those bridal parts, Big G., but only if they are still usable ones.
I would find this all to be fascinating even if I were not smack in the middle of it. It has mystery, it has intrigue, it has humor, it has tragedy (my bank account-wise), it has good cop/bad cop, and it definitely has me conflicted, as you wisely observed, cefil.
I also see, however, that I have been guilty of a misdemeanor typo in transposing what the seller wrote about Donald Bradley, in that he said he was born in 1920 rather than 1928, and so would have been of sufficient age for WWII.
Tomorrow I shall attempt some further contacts in the Martin area. In the meantime there remain two artifacts for sale on eBay from this same collection, a bullet and a suspender buckle, if anyone has any questions about them for the seller. MA
"If it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God, then we need to build some bigger G#d%*n needles."
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Post by biggordie on Jan 2, 2009 10:01:34 GMT -6
My own sitcom - what a thought: The Adventures Of Biggordie And His Dysfunctional Brood, rated PGMAB*, nothing for everyone and something for no-one. Tres amusant!
Gordie
* Please, Give Me A Break
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Jan 2, 2009 10:48:37 GMT -6
The next installment in the soap operetta is as follows, learned this morning:
The collection of Native American artifacts once displayed at the Black Pipe State Bank (now Security First Bank) was owned by the Hodson family, of Martin. SD. It was started many years ago by the grandfather of three Hodson brothers who own what is left of it now, was expanded extensively by their father and, for the most part, was sold at auction(s) handled by Allard Auctions of St. Ignatious, Mont. (see http://www.allardauctions.com) in or about 2007.
It included hundreds of items, some of which, but not many, were LBH related. There were also a few items sold or given away before or shortly after the father died. Samplings of the latter include a Ghost Shirt sold to a banker in Yankton, and two eagle feather war bonnets donated to and now on display at the William F. Cody Museum in Cody, Wyoming.
The Hodson family retained some items, including a telescope with LBH provenance through the brother of Dewey Beard (White Lance?). Mr. Herb Hodson, who graciously supplied this information, intends to market some of what is left, much of which, I believe, is Western art and Mayan artifacts, when he is able to do so. In fact, if anyone collects such items, or simply would like to talk to Mr. Hodson about the collection and what is available, he provided his phone number and permission to give it to anyone interested. E-mail me at monteakers@yahoo.com if you would like to have the number and are a well-meaning person.
If Gordie asks for it, I'm not sure what I'll do.
However, as for Donald Bradley, Ormie Brimmer, or "Bullets, Brass and Stone," the now-familiar response was "doesn't ring a bell." There was a man who ran a general store near Martin, a friend of the Hodson family, who acquired some of the artifacts, but his name was Harold Bradford, not Donaldy Bradley.
I've left a message with Allard Auctions, and Mr. Hodson said he would mail me a brochure featuring the items that were auctioned in Santa Fe, many of which, he believes, were purchased by antiques dealers in and around that area. There was also a large, glossy catalog prepared for the auction, as we've all seen for similar offerings, and which serve as nice source books in and to themselves.
Seems a little more of the path into the fog has been traversed, but with the fog no less dense. MA
"We are the sand sifting ‘neath Heaven’s door since the Lord decided to lock it, that litters the floor He’ll sweep one day soon. We are the hole in God’s pocket."
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Post by bc on Jan 2, 2009 12:28:58 GMT -6
Still have to wonder though. The best provenance for a honestly acquired item would be to say that they got it from the Hodson family or through the auction. Since your ebay seller has this manufactured and vague provenance, it has to be a phony or illegally obtained. Did Mr. Hodson indicate anything may have been stolen or not? Unless you have item numbers from ebay Monte, I can't find the articles you mentioned.
My ebay research found a Custer painting with a beard, done to represent what he looked like at the Washita battle. Was to have hung at the Washita battle museum in Cheyenne, OK. Then the private museum was supposed to have been changed to Oklahoma state ownership in 1992 while keeping many of the original items. This painting is alleged not to have made the transfer. Nothing mentioned about a bill of sale from the original museum which I would think they would have.
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Jan 2, 2009 14:21:10 GMT -6
bc: No, the possibility that the eBay items may have come from the Hodson collection but had their pedigree revised makes absolutely no sense at all.
The eBay item numbers are: Buckle: 370137347558 Bullet (musket ball): 230316747180
There are two additional items from the same seller that are either new or that I overlooked, which are: bone-handled (eating utensil) knife: 370138670171 bone-handled fork: 370138672795
If you have any interest in viewing the four items I purchased, and I believe you still can, their numbers are:
230305424982 230305449794 370107237938 370127627615
I grew up about 30 miles from Cheyenne, Oklahoma, and visited the Black Kettle Museum and the Washita battlefield various times. While I cannot positively say the painting was there, it looks vaguely familiar and certainly may have been. The photo posted with it is certainly of the old museum. FYI for anyone who gets close to that part of the country, the NPS has recently acquired the battlefield and has constructed a very nice, state of the art visitor center and museum (resulting in closure of the Black Kettle Museum), which includes not only some nice artifacts but a very fine film about the battle. At least one of the park rangers is a Southern Cheyenne and another is a 7th Cavalry reenactor. My family and I visited it in November, and it is certainly worth seeing. MA
"We are the grit that grinds in the gears and fouls the cogs and the sprockets of the engine the Lord still intends to tune. We are the hole in God’s pocket."
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Post by bc on Jan 2, 2009 14:48:33 GMT -6
I looked at the present items for sale. A round musket ball. I'd think that even the NAs hardly used a musket at the time. It doesn't appear to have been fired. A buckle found on a sioux warrior when no warrior bodies were found at the battle and whose to say one found later came from the battle field. The knife and fork found at the Reno hilltop site, and one of them may have blood stains from the battle, give me a break.
From the reviews, Gangreen appears happy with the provenances. Have you messaged him?
The time I was at the Washita site was either on an anniversary of the battle of something else. There was a group of NAs there in full headdresses and buckskins to do some type of ceremony. I didn't watch it though.
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Post by bc on Jan 2, 2009 15:21:36 GMT -6
Well Montea, I looked at a couple item you bought. One a round musket ball like the one listed for sale that does not appear to have been fired. I guess someone with access to the archeological survey can tell if any round balls were found.
Here is the part of the provenance for that Concho you bought for $262. "The provenance I have states that this was found on or very near and American Indian Warrior about 50 feet from were General George Custer was found. The provenance also states that this deco peice was probably a souvenir peice that an American Indian had took as a souvenir from another encounter with the U.S. Caverly." The first statement contradicts the second one and there were no warriors found on the battlefield dead or alive and definitely no one within 50 feet of Custer. Caveat emptor and caveat emptor of men in white coats my friend.
Good luck and keep us informed.
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Post by biggordie on Jan 2, 2009 16:52:30 GMT -6
I have a round ball from the Ford D area [outside the monument property]. Provenance is it was dug by me in 1960.
There were several cap and ball weapons at the battle, including, but not limited, to pistols and shotguns, and there were balls found during the archaeological digs. Of course, as some would point out, they might have found their way there in 1975, or been planted for tourists or bigwigs to find.
Gordie
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Post by bc on Jan 2, 2009 16:57:14 GMT -6
Thanks Gordie, I assumed there might be some cap & ball pistols and maybe even a musket or two but I didn't have any first hand info to state it. Does your ball have any impressions either from the fired side or the impact side?
Also did they have enough balls out there to where you would find a couple and not have any conical bullets? i.e. how rare?
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Jan 2, 2009 19:51:43 GMT -6
The lead ball I purchased is a .58 caliber for a smoothbore musket, probably a drop. I used to be a CW relic hunter and have dug several. They tend to hold their shape when fired better than a minie ball, which means exactly diddley about the provenance of this one.
As for the concho, the genuine handwritten, signed, notarized COA complete with appraisal ("$400 to $600" making it an absolute steal at a mere $262, and only over-appraised by $399 to $599) says it was found on a piece of clothing worn by an Indian, not on an Indian body, but yes, within 50 ft. of GAC's body. Perhaps it was dropped further away, but then was drawn toward GAC magnetically by that knife on which he was lying.
The button and fork I purchased are way too pristine to have been in the ground for long, the seller's semi-express/semi-implicit explanation being that they were recovered after only ten to twenty years after the battle and were expertly cleaned at ye olde Blackpipe Museum.
Anyone who collects artifacts but cannot afford to buy the very best will get burned, and anyone who buys them off eBay will get burned more often. It is not merely caveat emptor but do-your-research-well-or-don't-do-it-at-all emptor. I violated my own rule to never pay more than a hundred bucks for an eBay item with these four due to their apparently detailed, very imaginative provenance. I got worried when I saw them, became alarmed when I couldn't find the book, and decided I'd been screwed when I couldn't find the museum, after which I started this thread. Nothing has convinced me yet that my purchases have a net combined value of more than about $12, although being told of the Black Pipe State Bank NA collection was startling, at least temporarily.
January will either see a refund, a surprising satisfactory explanation, or my engaging the services of an Arizona attorney to file suit, unless I can't find a firm that doesn't require an arm and a leg retainer. There are other buyers who also got taken, and if I can help them out, I will.
I really appreciate your comments, concern and support cefil, bc, gordie, Diane, brokensword, and markland. The level of expertise, consideration, humor, and patience with a newbie on this message board is most gratifying. It almost makes the experience that brought me to it worthwhile, and each of you have a standing invitation, if you're ever in the Austin area, to a home cooked meal, a viewing of some artifacts with a reliable provenance, and an evening of odd tales about old things. MA
"And we are the curl of grayish-white hair tucked inside the locket He wears to remember his Eden-ish dreams before we were the hole in God's pocket."
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Jan 2, 2009 19:54:46 GMT -6
Oh, and bc, I think you shoud be careful asking Gordie a question containing the phrase "did they have enough balls out there." No telling what you'll get.
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Post by bc on Jan 2, 2009 23:14:59 GMT -6
Thanks for the invite Monte. You wouldn't happen to be a (long sideways spit) Longhorn fan would you?
Not that I have too much pride, we paid to become Baylor boosters in order to buy big 12 tournament tickets last year. We got tickets for about 10 KU games this year. Going to the Tennessee game tomorrow.
There are three teams I hate to watch: Texas, Oklahoma, & USC. The bands only know one short fight song and they repeat it every 10 seconds for fifty gazillion times a game. USC's is probably the worst.
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Jan 3, 2009 0:00:46 GMT -6
My wife, daughter and sister in law boarded a plane for the Fiesta Bowl, via Las Vegas, at 7:30 this evening. My son and I will watch the game on TV, wearing orange. My wife's family had somebody attending and/or teaching at UT from 1923 to 1986. We drove to the KU/UT game from Austin in November via the Washita, Dodge City, Comanche at KU in Lawrence, and back by Coffeyville to look at the Dalton's body outlines in death alley. My son can probably tell you each current Longhorn player's weight, in addition to high school and maybe even gpa, then name at least twenty current high school players that Mack Brown will be recruiting or trying to recruit. He is to UT football as some of y'all are to GAC and the LBH. Other'n that, nah, we ain't fans. MA
"I’m not saying my father-in-law didn’t go to Heaven. What I’m saying is, if he did, then we all get to go."
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Post by biggordie on Jan 3, 2009 1:08:51 GMT -6
Monte:
On the one hand you show yourself to be a gentleman of the highest order [your invitation - make sure you keep some Mexican beer on hand, you never know who might be showing up one day] and on the other, you make sarcastic comments about the most angelic poster on these boards. I don't know what to make of you. A wall trophy, perhaps.
bc:
A serious question deserves a serious answer, and as one of the serious members of this forum, let me say this about the very serious matter of balls in the Custer fight. According to Archaeological Perspectives On The Battle Of The Little Bighorn, which must be serious with a title like that, and doctor people as authors, Custer had two hundred and ten total personnel in the battalions with him, and was faced by approximately 2,000 warriors, two of whom were females. Let's leave it at 2,000, since that is only an approximation anyway, giving a grand total of 2,210 men on Custer field. You can do the math as well as I.
According to the same source, one .36 caliber round ball was found on the Reno-Benteen defense site and showed signs of having been fired from a Colt's percussion revolver. The ball I have also appears to be .36 caliber. It shows signs of having been loaded [two lever marks, I think] but no rifling or impact marks that I can see. Of course, I am not a ballistics expert. Were I an archaeologist, I might think that it had been loaded in a larger bore weapon, and had fallen out. I also have what appears to be a shotgun pellet, probably from a buckshot or ball and bullet load, Neither of these show signs of impact, There were nine pieces of shot found on the Custer battlefield, and three on the Reno defense site.
Archaeological Perspectives states that: "Round balls were usually fired in muzzle-loading firearms, which were considered obsolete by 1876.......where a cartridge of the appropriate caliber could not always be found, powder and ball were easily obtainable..........There are fourteen .44 to .45 caliber round balls from the Custer battlefield.....four other balls were recovered from the Reno-Benteen defense site....There are fifteen .50 caliber balls from the Custer battlefield....twenty-five .50 caliber balls....were found on the Reno-Benteen defense site............."
So there were several, if not many, cap and ball weapons in the fights. Could have been a flintlock or two, for all I know - or maybe they used slingshots. I have not included information from the Weibert collection, which has many times the samples that the "digs" found.
I also have two .45 caliber bullets fired from .45-55 carbines, or maybe the same one. Both show signs of impact, one serious. Both were recovered from the area where the Cheyenne camps stood, opposite the Ford D area.
I should say that I did not do extensive searching in this area, on either side of the river - hardly any, really. I did more along Benteen's route than there.
If you would like me to check Weibert for added info, I will be happy to do so, but it's getting past my bedtime, so it will have to await another day.
Take care, you guys...................
Gordie
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