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Post by fred on Oct 6, 2018 5:37:43 GMT -6
Is there any evidence that GAC actually went on north? Or, could he have sent some company or a piece of it to find out if the ford was usable and or if they were trying to gather info , fast! I can't help but think if E was having a time of it lower down and the others were probably just as busy by that point.And probably by then they could all see how many were coming for them. Knowing the other Batts weren't gonna be any help by then.I just can't see GAC himself splitting anymore troops up knowing it was serious by then. So he sends maybe 20 over to D to check. I'm new so just my thought. If one takes the time to analyze Indian accounts, yes, there is evidence Custer moved north. There is also archaeological evidence of troop presence beyond the Battle Ridge extension. There is also the presence of Mark Kellogg's body. And knowing Custer's personality, why would he split his command further-- as you suggest-- by sending 20 (why 20?) men to explore Ford D? Part of this continuing problem in understanding Custer's moves once past Ford B, is people's inability to project themselves clearly into real situations. We tend to minimize the speed of movement and the effects speed has; we see things clearly, i.e., from Weir Point, when dust and smoke obscured most everything; and because so many only dream of the military-- having never actually served to find out what it is really like!!-- we have no understanding how a military organization works, i.e., discipline in an undisciplined world, organization, training, armament, etc. Once again, this is very simple. Custer drops off Keogh on Calhoun Hill, hopefully to await Benteen's arrival; Custer proceeds north to (a) find out where the Indians are going or have gathered... since he does not know this yet, and (b) to find a place to ford the river; he tells Keogh before he leaves that he will backtrack onto high ground so Keogh will know where he is after his reconnaissance; Custer runs into slight opposition-- as usual-- as he bends around Last Stand Hill and enters Crazy Horse Ravine; he reaches Ford D, finally accomplishing what he has set out to do; backtracks onto Cemetery Ridge... and 45 minutes later, dies. Quick, clear, simple. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by brenda56 on Oct 7, 2018 2:46:12 GMT -6
Once again, this is very simple. Custer drops off Keogh on Calhoun Hill, hopefully to await Benteen's arrival; Custer proceeds north to (a) find out where the Indians are going or have gathered... since he does not know this yet, and (b) to find a place to ford the river; he tells Keogh before he leaves that he will backtrack onto high ground so Keogh will know where he is after his reconnaissance; Custer runs into slight opposition-- as usual-- as he bends around Last Stand Hill and enters Crazy Horse Ravine; he reaches Ford D, finally accomplishing what he has set out to do; backtracks onto Cemetery Ridge... and 45 minutes later, dies. ---------------- Many moons ago I asked the question whether there was line of sight between Calhoun location and Cemetery. It would appear that that is the case therefore Custer's return to Cemetery makes sense - a visual marker or maybe a signal. Without repeating Benteen's projected track and speed it appeared that Benteen should have been in sight of Keogh at or around the same time Custer returns to Cemetery. So Custer can see Keogh and Keogh can see Benteen. All joined up, one way or another, and that suggests active planning maybe with a slight contempt for risk.
So as I look down on the battlefield and disregard the Reno/Benteen intersection the perfect alignment of Custer/Keogh/Benteen is in place at a critical time.
- Is this purely a coincidence ? If not I must admit this was impressive planning suggesting a level of competence. By that I mean competence based on "how the military thinks and operates in their area of specific expertise". If I struggle with the competence issue, as others may do for various reasons, there is a hint by consequence that indeed Custer had meaningful conversations with Benteen and Keogh and an understanding, at least, as to Benteen's orders. Thereagain the alignment may just be a coincidence however it is a compelling scene.
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Post by noggy on Oct 10, 2018 2:12:55 GMT -6
Many moons ago I asked the question whether there was line of sight between Calhoun location and Cemetery. On a side note here: I often find that never having visited the battlefield is a source of frustration and uncertainty due to things like this. I understand the terrain has changed/been altered since 1876, but still it would be nice to get a clearer idea of line og sights from certain areas. All the best, Noggy
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Post by fred on Oct 10, 2018 7:46:42 GMT -6
I understand the terrain has changed/been altered since 1876, but still it would be nice to get a clearer idea of line og sights from certain areas. Very, very little. They put in an access road in 1934, cutting through the Weir Point area and they filled in the gap in Battle Ridge, also leveling the Last Stand Hill area very slightly, but for the most part the battlefield is the same. And if you stand off in the distance you can still see the gap. The biggest changes are outside the reservation area, i.e., Reno Creek, the timber area, the river course, etc. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by noggy on Oct 11, 2018 5:44:43 GMT -6
I understand the terrain has changed/been altered since 1876, but still it would be nice to get a clearer idea of line og sights from certain areas. Very, very little. They put in an access road in 1934, cutting through the Weir Point area and they filled in the gap in Battle Ridge, also leveling the Last Stand Hill area very slightly, but for the most part the battlefield is the same. And if you stand off in the distance you can still see the gap. The biggest changes are outside the reservation area, i.e., Reno Creek, the timber area, the river course, etc. Best wishes, Fred. Ok, thank you, Fred. Speaking of areas outside the ...eh, "main" battlefield, hasn`t parts of the "Ford D flats" been affected by bridge building or something? I thought there had been some building of either roads or bridges there? Am I off target? All the best, Geir
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 11, 2018 6:14:37 GMT -6
Noggy, to add to what Fred has said, the river course has changed quite a bit in the ford D area. There was a gravel pit(now gone). the old road was there(now gone), fill dirt from this area and the tip( north end) of BR was used for construction of the new road/entrance in the 1950's. Deep Ravine has silted in to some degree. Having said this the lay of the land has changed little.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Oct 13, 2018 10:15:30 GMT -6
Ok, thank you, Fred. Speaking of areas outside the ...eh, "main" battlefield, hasn`t parts of the "Ford D flats" been affected by bridge building or something? I thought there had been some building of either roads or bridges there? Am I off target? Geir, You are quite welcome. And no, you are not off target. Also, Tom is entirely correct. The Ford D area does not exist as such any more. There is a train trestle crossing right in that vicinity, as well as the Interstate service road, so while you can photograph the general vicinity and walk along that service road, it would be tough and virtually fruitless to even attempt to get down onto the actual ground. There was also a gravel pit dug at the end part of the old Crazy Horse Ravine, so any artifacts or traces in that area have since been obliterated. Also, the area of Ford B was used as a dump of some sort, though it has been cleaned up, but heaven only knows what one would find there if the archaeologists chose to excavate that section. Plus, it is not park reservation land, so that adds another element into things. I believe we have seen the last of the digging and exploring, certainly in my lifetime. Overall, the battlefield areas and those leading up to them have been devastated over the years with very little concern about the history, the men who died, or maintaining any such sanity involved in hallowed ground. And believe me, there have been enough historic depredations to blame a lot of people, not the least of which would be the Crow Indians and the U. S. government itself. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 15, 2018 13:57:25 GMT -6
When they built the new access road they bridged one of the main drainage's which ran down off BRE to the flats near ford D. I don't know if this drainage or coulee was used to get north off the village, but I am sure it was also named Crazy Horse Ravine at one point. This roadway would have changed the area a great deal, plus buried any evidence too. Also did they find Kellogg body in this ravine.
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Post by fred on Oct 15, 2018 15:41:25 GMT -6
Also did they find Kellogg body in this ravine. Yes, they did. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by noggy on Oct 16, 2018 3:02:33 GMT -6
Also, the area of Ford B was used as a dump of some sort, though it has been cleaned up, but heaven only knows what one would find there if the archaeologists chose to excavate that section. Fred, Thank you again for great answers. Getting an updated oversight over what`s been done with/on the battlefield is not as easy as I`d liked it to be, so I appreciate anyone The part I quoted is yet another thing I wonder about. I`m sure I`ve read somewhere something like either no digs being done around Ford B or nothing being found there. It seems strange that no archaeological work would be done on such a famous part of the battlefield, but I`m no archaeologist so I reckon they have their reasons if so. I havw
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 16, 2018 5:11:53 GMT -6
Ford B is on private land, both sides of the river. The area has been worked by pros and locals. I think Fred even mentioned soil displacement in this area. There was little of value found close to the river. Geir, come over look at the battlefield, I will hire Fred to conduct the tour.
Regards, Tom
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Post by noggy on Oct 16, 2018 6:03:14 GMT -6
Ford B is on private land, both sides of the river. The area has been worked by pros and locals. I think Fred even mentioned soil displacement in this area. There was little of value found close to the river. Geir, come over look at the battlefield, I will hire Fred to conduct the tour. Regards, Tom Argh, see; I thought Ford D was on private lands, never knew that the Ford B was. Misunderstood... Thanks for clearing that up for me, Tom. Visiting the field is pretty much on the top of my "to do"-list. All the best, geir
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 16, 2018 8:44:41 GMT -6
Next year is a great time to visit. The trifecta of LBH organizations will all hold meetings around the anniversary dates and all fairly close with Sheridan being the furthest for the LBHA meeting, CBHMA in Hardin, and Friends at the battlefield.
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Post by noggy on Oct 17, 2018 5:00:07 GMT -6
Sounds great. I envy people who are one inland flight away from this, even though i can\t complain about the accessibility to historical places by plane (or walking distance for that matter).
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Post by fred on Oct 17, 2018 6:09:11 GMT -6
Geir,
If you go there, you can walk all you want around the Ford B area from the east-- soldiers-- side of the river. I am not sure-- and my maps are all packed away-- but that land is probably owned by the CBPC, so no one ever says a word. Besides, there is a pull-off along the road with an interpretive sign there, so access is never an issue. If you were to go during "festivities" week, the west side-- which is private land-- is always occupied by the U. S. Cavalry School, so access is always granted: never a problem.
Best wishes, Fred.
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