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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 21, 2008 21:55:05 GMT -6
I took them from They Died with Custer by Douglas Scott page 11, Table 12 Location of the Reno-Benteen Casualties Who were Identified. It lists and remarks and in the remarks it lists locations and/or wounds. I did include any arrow wounds on the hill top. What would make you think that since Dr. DeWolf is shot in the chest from above while climbing the bluffs that the Indian did not have that firearm before the retrograde? Was there time for the Indians to get a Reno carbine and get ahead of the troops then figure out how to load and fire a well aimed shot to the chest of the good Dr. Good thing they didn't walk there then because Crazy Horse was coming and they would have had all the carbines.
So you think that most of the casualties on the hilltop after Custer was destroyed was done with Custer's carbines. That could be.
Sgt O Hara shot Bloody Knife shot Charley Reynolds shot Pvt Lorentz shot in back Dorman shot
None listed as death by arrow
AZ Ranger
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Post by conz on Sept 22, 2008 7:10:50 GMT -6
I certainly believe that some Soldiers were shot by firearms...I just do not believe that the majority were.
Now at Reno's fight, you would expect to see some firearms casualties...in the firefight in the valley and in the woods firearms were the ONLY effective distance fire weapons...in the open because of the range, and in the woods because of the trees. But I still believe more Soldiers in the retreat were killed by lance and axe weapons than by rifles, pistols, or arrows.
At the top, the only weapon Natives had to use was firearms, and they had many more, and much more ammunition for them, during the "Reno siege."
Very different action from the Custer fight, of course, where Kate and others specifically mention the majority use of bows and arrows, for very good reasons.
I think it would be difficult to make a convincing case that more than 10% of the deaths in the 7th Cavalry were caused by rifle or pistol fire, at least used by the Natives.
Clair
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 22, 2008 8:21:43 GMT -6
I think it would be difficult to make a convincing case that more than 10% of the deaths in the 7th Cavalry were caused by rifle or pistol fire, at least used by the Natives.
Clair
I think 10% is to low. 24 shot listed by name in Reno's command alone and 0 listed from arrow. 1 had a knife in the eye. It would not take many from Custer Battlefield (CB) including Custer to exceed 10%. If you believe Kate then self inflicted gunshot wounds alone might exceed 10% at CB.
The vast majority are an undetermined cause of death. Only one is listed as caused by arrow in my source. I would agree that most were CQB wounds which does not reflect mutually supporting skirmish lines. The problem is CQB fatalities and mutilations of living wounded look the same upon examination. So a trooper shot and severely wounded with Henry could be mistaken as a CQB casualty.
AZ Ranger
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Post by conz on Sept 22, 2008 9:19:37 GMT -6
AZ,
Nothing wrong with your reasoning, I think.
Now if only 200 Natives out of 2,000 had modern firearms, do you perceive, in your model, that 10% of the Natives caused more than half the casualties of Custer's command?
If one-third had arrows, what percentage of the overall casualties do you perceive that they caused?
Clair
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Post by wild on Sept 22, 2008 9:32:46 GMT -6
Probably the majority of casualties were caused by Indian ponies
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Post by conz on Sept 22, 2008 13:00:46 GMT -6
Another consideration some may not have thought of:
It takes five or six hits with a bullet or arrow to kill or totally incapacitate a fighter, and a relatively long amount of time before they "bleed out." That puts a much greater burden on this type of fighting to reduce an enemy force's fighting capacity.
It only takes a few seconds to incapacitate an fighter in close combat.
This must be part of anyone's formula if they are trying to determine what role firepower played in our battle, and what the significance of repeaters would be.
Clair
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Post by sherppa on Sept 22, 2008 20:35:51 GMT -6
clair, If I may comment on your statement.
It takes five or six hits with a bullet or arrow to kill or totally incapacitate a fighter, and a relatively long amount of time before they "bleed out."
I think five or six hits with a 405 grain 45/55 or a 240 grain 44/40 to settle the dispute is a bit of a stretch. Even the arrow on average will settle most things with one or maybe two shots.
At the end of the day shot placement as critical, if not more then mechanism utilized to inflict the wound.
respectfully,
sherppa
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Post by wild on Sept 23, 2008 1:13:06 GMT -6
"Probably the majority of casualties were caused by Indian ponies"
I was actually serious about that.The Indian's best weapon was his pony.Rested watered fresh it was far superior to the cavalry nag.The speed at which they came out of the village caught Custer cold,in line and spread out over a mile.What cavalry in the world would dismount when bearing down on such easy pickings and engage in a fire fight?The Indians on their Rolls Royce mark 1 ponies rode over the 7th.
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Post by conz on Sept 23, 2008 7:22:58 GMT -6
Wild,
Don't you think that most of the Warriors fighting Custer were dismounted most of the time? Kinda negates the pony factor, eh?
Problem with mounted warfare is that you make too good a target. No mass of Warriors is going to ride mounted anywhere near a Soldier skirmish line.
But yes, in general, having fresh horses gives a force greater mobility and an advantage in mobile warfare. Doesn't help much when the fighting is mostly in stationary mode, though.
Native cavalry is not much for riding en masse over enemy infantry formations, ala European heavy cavalry, of course. <g>
Clair
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Post by bc on Sept 23, 2008 7:59:35 GMT -6
Seems like the observations coming from Weir Point through all the smoke, dust, and distance were of a lot NAs on ponyback swarming around. Can't quote any specifics except for the NAs riding in formation with a guidon and cav uniforms which were at first mistaken for troops. That incident also suggests the NAs must have striipped many bodies fairly quickly and maybe not as much by the NA women.
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Post by wild on Sept 23, 2008 9:47:40 GMT -6
Conz Don't you think that most of the Warriors fighting Custer were dismounted most of the time? Kinda negates the pony factor, eh Every fighting man and woman came out of that village on a pony. The unstopable momentum of several hundreds of charging warriors would have created a dynamic of its own.On the other side the weary scattered troopers immediately knew they stood no chance.It was a case of the unstopable meeting no resistance.
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Post by conz on Sept 23, 2008 10:20:46 GMT -6
I think that chaotic model is very improbable, albeit remotely possible.
While all the warriors got to the Custer area mounted, many, if not most, dismounted to fight. They also HAD to dismount to pick the bodies of booty.
After the fight, they would remount to celebrate and go back to fight Reno.
Some testimony:
“Most of the Indians were working around the ridge now occupied by the soldiers. We were lying down in gullies and behind sagebrush hillocks. The shooting at first was at a distance, but we kept creeping in closer all around the ridge. Bows and arrows were in use much more than guns…The ponies of our warriors who were creeping along the gulches had been left in gulches farther back. Some of them were let loose, dragging their ropes, but most of them were tied to sagebrush…The slow long-distance fighting was kept up for about an hour and a half, I believe. The Indians all the time could see where were the soldiers, because the white men were mostly on a ridge and their horses were with them. But the soldiers could not see our warriors, as they had left their ponies and were crawling in the gullies through the sagebrush. A warrior would jump up, shoot, jerk himself down quickly, and then crawl forward a little further. All around the soldier ridge our men were doing this. So not many of them got hit by the soldier bullets during this time of fighting.” – Wooden Leg
"They [Custer's bn] ran to the top of a knoll and dismounted, one man holding four horses. We dismounted too, and filled the gullies that the running water had made in the side of the hill. From there we could shoot straight up at the soldiers. Many of them fell, but the others kept shooting and killing some of us. The fighting continued, and what horses had not been killed, stampeded and rushed down the hill across the river, where the women and children were." – Thunder Bear
I left my men there and told them to hold that position and then I rushed around the hills and came up to the north end of the field near where the monument now stands. And I saw hundreds and hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around. The Indians dismounted and tied their horses in a bunch and got down into the coulees, shooting at the soldiers from all sides. - Runs the Enemy
All around, the Indians began jumping up, running forward, dodging down, jumping up again, down again, all the time going toward the soldiers. - Wooden Leg
More and more soldiers were getting off their horses, preferring to hide or crawl along the ground. The ride by the river became a focal point as bands of warriors moved toward the waiting soldiers. Hundreds of Indians had begun to crawl toward them along crevices and gullies. - Kate Bighead
The warriors rode around the little knots of surrounded soldiers like water swirling around rocks…Few troopers, however, were actually killed by mounted Indians. The largest number of casualties, by far, were those inflicted on the soldiers by Indian marksmen hidden in every little gulch and ravine and behind every patch of brush around the ridge. Many whites were shot in the back or side. While their hands were full defending themselves against mounted charges, the soldiers often exposed themselves to long-range gunfire from a totally unexpected quarter." – White Bull (Cheyenne)
The same Indians called out very loud, "All dismount,"and they did so. It was done quickly. When Indians dismounted they shot at soldiers who retreated for the top of the hill. Then all Indians mounted and charged. - Young Two Moon
Clair
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Post by bc on Sept 23, 2008 12:39:29 GMT -6
Most NA statements appear to mention shooting and I don't think they mean arrows.
Going down the list: shooting(Wooden Leg), shoot(Thunder Bear), shoot(Runs the Enemy), (KB silent), marksman & shot & soldiers often exposed themselves to long-range gunfire (White Bull), shot (Young Two Moon)
The accounts do suggest creeping up on foot against the soldiers but White Bull talks about soldiers defending themselves against mounted charges and Young Two Moon said they dismounted but then all the Indians mounted and charged.
These of course are all translations and i can't say what part of the battlefield each one was one.
The traditional NA fighting method was to go back & forth and in circles in front of the enemy until they can find an opening to charge in. This is also what Benteen observed from the knoll when he saw NAs attacking Reno's men towards the end of the valley fight.
I suspect they did ride in, dismount, creep up the coulees, fire until resistance slackened, and then charged in on horseback or on foot depending how close they were to their horse. Some of the ones that crept up the coulees may have been the early arrivals and some on horseback than never dismounted were later arrivals. These accounts seem to talk about the NAs coming from the river and I'm not sure if any of them were with the NAs to the north, east, & south of Custer's positions.
All close in fighting I suspect was done with clubs, tomahawks, and coup sticks/spears.
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Post by wild on Sept 24, 2008 2:00:54 GMT -6
While all the warriors got to the Custer area mounted, many, if not most, dismounted to fight Conz There are probably two uncontrolable forces on the battle field.One is blind terror the other is the scent of certain victory.Custer could not break contact with the Indians and was forced to give up mobility and dismount and this in extended line.The Indians ,everyone of them mounted and one minute distant from their foe with certain victory at hand were not going to dismount and engage in an hour long fire fight on Custer's terms.These were warriors competiting with each other to see who would be first to count coup.What "leader is going to call halt we'll fight them on foot? You have posted a number of accounts of witnesses describing Indians fighting on foot.Can you post a claim by any Indian chief saying he was the one who called halt?
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Post by conz on Sept 24, 2008 7:49:34 GMT -6
Wild,
I love you man, and you have a good mind, but you are trying to be too legal about this...it won't work. There are so many accounts of the long firefight and crawling around periods of the Custer fight that I think it is silly to continue to believe a model that assumes the Natives quickly overran Custer's units. None of the evidence fits that model, so your thinking on this is just going to have to change (my advice).
So take a one-minute spanking, reformulate your inner moppet, and come to grips with a model that takes into account all this firefighting before the close combat ever occurred...it took time, and a lot of Warriors were slow and careful about approaching the dismounted cavalry fighting positions before they finally overran them.
Can you allow yourself a personal epiphany on this battle? <g>
Once you have done this, you can work on the aspect that few of these Cavalrymen were "terror-stricken." They were mostly hardened fighters that knew their duty and did it to their last bullet.
Clair
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