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Post by ephriam on Apr 20, 2008 7:04:32 GMT -6
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 20, 2008 10:08:50 GMT -6
There are entire pages of handwritten notes in Sioux! I assume Sioux. Incredible. They're described as untranslated, but I guess they could have been elsewhere and just reflects there is no translation attached.
Who here can translate to see if they're new or previously translated? Also, what year did Sioux get a written language and who composed it and how is it done? It looks suspiciously like English structure here.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 20, 2008 18:38:34 GMT -6
The hand writing is in Sioux Cursive rather than printing?
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Post by clw on Apr 22, 2008 8:10:53 GMT -6
Walter Stanley Vestal (aka Walter S Campbell) was a Rhodes scholar but his handwriting is atrocious. Figures. I'm no expert, but what I can read looks like accurate Lakota to me.
dc, the first written format for the Siouan languages was compiled in 1834 by Episcopal missionaries who created a Dakota alphabet. Lt. Joseph K. Hyer and Lt. William Starring, both WP grads, with the aid of Charles Guerreu, Indian Interpreter (not sure of that spelling, it's very hard to read on the scan) compiled a field dictionary that was issued by the army in 1866, titled Lahcotah. The famous Jesuit missionary, Eugene Buechel, compiled an extensive Lakota dictionary published in 1939. There's more than one alphabet in use today, but more and more I see the Siouan languages written phonetically, which is the way the army dictionary is written. In fact, if I'm unsure how to pronounce a word, I use that 1866 dictionary. It's limited -- only about 30 pages - but the phonetics are excellent.
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Post by clw on Apr 22, 2008 8:19:25 GMT -6
Does anyone know how to copy a page from a pdf and paste it into the real world?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 22, 2008 11:09:33 GMT -6
What in the world would a Sioux alphabet look like? I'd bet it's more in line with a pronouncing gazetteer or whatever early Fielding Guide type books used. The 1866 sounds like the phonetic phrase manual given soldiers to this day. The good father's work may reflect a language then in use but not a hundred years before anglo phrases and distinctions were known.
Adobe has its points and its profits, and you are on that cusp.
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Post by clw on Apr 22, 2008 12:21:42 GMT -6
The good father's work may reflect a language then in use but not a hundred years before anglo phrases and distinctions were known. Not sure I understand your intended point above, but I'll try to clarify. There is modern Lakota which contains contemporary definitions like 'grocery store' and a bunch of slang and traditional Lakota which contains definitions for words like otiwo'ta meaning an old family campsite, obviously not needed in modern culture. Traditional Lakota was never anglicized and is still spoken, although fluent speakers are decreasing. Father Buechel's dictionary is really a masterpiece of traditional Lakota. He began working on it in 1904 when traditional Lakota was still the predominate language. I've found words/definitions that were unknown by modern Lakota speakers but confirmed by elders who are fluent in the old language. I hate pdf's, really I do. But I shall print, scan and win. And then I'll see about getting a translation. If you Google 'lakota alphabet' you'll find several different ones. |
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Post by Scout on Apr 22, 2008 17:19:23 GMT -6
clw...actually pdf's are great to use if you know the icons at the top. When you find something you want to print go to the icons at the top....choose view full page...open...click on the camera icon and cut(or highlight) exactly want you need and hit the print icon....you get just want you want. very easy.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 22, 2008 17:49:18 GMT -6
I only meant that it had been corrupted by English, Spanish, and French by the time it got put to paper.
Imagine granting the power to commit an entire language to writing in one person. His/her decisions could misrepresent history and enshrine errors unable to be corrected. How many letters, and what do they look like. And why were the choices made.
English would be very different today if Johnson hadn't loved Shakespeare and the King James Bible when he did the dictionary, and that's not as powerful as the grammar and verb constructions. I think it amazing.
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Post by clw on Apr 22, 2008 18:47:58 GMT -6
Many thanks, Scout. That solves one problem. But is there a way to copy a pdf file to another program?
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Post by cefil on Apr 22, 2008 20:07:45 GMT -6
...is there a way to copy a pdf file to another program? Hi clw: It depends on what, exactly, you’re trying to do… If you want to convert a couple of pages (or portions of pages) to, say, a picture format that you can post on Photobucket or paste into a Word document, then you can do the following (based on Adobe Reader 8): Go to Tools>Select & Zoom>Snapshot Tool This gives you a selection tool, with which you can click & drag to select the portion of the pdf page you want to copy. When you release the mouse button, the portion you selected is copied to your clipboard. Then, open your favorite graphics program (PaintShop Pro, Microsoft Paint, etc.) and do a ctrl+v to paste the image from your clipboard into the graphics program, Save the file as your favorite picture format, and you’re done. You can use this new picture file in any program you want. If you want to convert a whole pdf file into another format, you might try using an online file conversion tool like zamzar.com ( www.zamzar.com/ ). I haven’t used this myself, but it looks pretty easy. You browse to the file you want to convert; tell zamzar what format you want it converted to, click the button, and they’ll email you a copy of the file in your chosen format. Looks slick...but, again, I haven’t used it. If neither of these suggestions is on target, let me know what you’re trying to do, and I’ll keep searching for a solution for you. (Anything to stave off that bull/horse whip!) cefil |
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Post by clw on Apr 23, 2008 5:38:47 GMT -6
Worked cefil! I have an older version of Adobe because my old computer can't handle the new one, but the I found the 'graphics select' tool (which was hidden for some reason) and it worked the same. Thank you!
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Post by markland on Apr 23, 2008 8:31:46 GMT -6
Here's another Lakota dictionary by Williamson which is a downloadable PDF from Google Books: tinyurl.com/4ujuchand here is Rigg's English/Sioux dictionary which Williamson refers to in the same format: tinyurl.com/43mqoyBilly |
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 23, 2008 9:22:47 GMT -6
Recently on Antique's Roadshow someone should up with a book regarding the translation of the Sioux Language into English. I believe it was done by an officer and had his picture available. If I remember correctly the book was down in the late 1860s or early 1870s. In addition there were two artifacts that belonged to Red Cloud & Spotted Tail. All items were worth mega-thousands.
I wonder if this was one of those books discussed here.
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Post by markland on Apr 23, 2008 10:16:27 GMT -6
Recently on Antique's Roadshow someone should up with a book regarding the translation of the Sioux Language into English. I believe it was done by an officer and had his picture available. If I remember correctly the book was down in the late 1860s or early 1870s. In addition there were two artifacts that belonged to Red Cloud & Spotted Tail. All items were worth mega-thousands. I wonder if this was one of those books discussed here. Horse, could the book have been Philo Clark's manual of sign languages? Just a thought. Billy |
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