CUSTER SOLE SURVIVORS AND THE RAMSEY CASE???

[analyst]

I too, was in the service in the late sixties and I do not recall ever signing for a meal in my own unit or army unit visited. I vaguely seem to recall I possibly had to sign at other food service like the Marine corps. in Army uniform. Been so long ago I am unsure about it. I do recall most of the chow seemed pretty good to me. And when it got old, a visit to one of the clubs would produce the desired hamburger,etc..
I have never seen a mess hall where the food was for sale. But it's a new age.
I have personally worked primarily with two ex-CIA people. One was a ex-CIA field agent. Unfortunately, he had a serious drinking problem, with much trajedy in his life, and was eventually let go. He had some great stories. The other was an analyst who had the personality of a snake. He, of course, went on to head another federal agency.
Intelligence people of almost every agency tend to be given "Cover Identities" Very often people who identify themselves as one thing are often another. The CIA is particularly secretive and sensitive about these matters. It is mostly a matter of necessity.
Oh, and while I am here, real warriors don't care about citations, they generally never will. A bronze star might look nice on your uniform, but counts for nothing, remembering you were able to save your buddy counts for everything. The MOH is the only one that counts for anything. But that is only because you won't have to pay tuition for your son's education. And if you are a lifer, it keeps the powers that be off your back. The standards to win one now are so high you can pretty much be assured you will probably get killed, so no one looks for it.
Salutations

[Jas. Watson]

When you go into a messhall there is a table right at the door. Sitting at the table is a a soldier who is detailed on 'headcount' duty. Officers and others who do not get issued rations sign a seperate sheet and pay the fee per meal at this point. Those who are issued meals at this point sign the 'headcount sheet' (I don't remember the form number) with their 'payroll signature' and either the headcount person or the soldier himself writes in the column next to the signature his 'last four'--the last four digits of his number (SS # since the 70's), but UPSIDEDOWN.
This is because it is generally the guy sitting accross the table from the line is the one who writes it and rather than the sheet being turned around with each and every signature the two can write at the same time.
Many guys got kind of proficient at writing their numbers upsidedown.

So the answer to that question is: "Your last four, upsidedown".

Does this bring back any memories? I'm not sure when this system started so maybe those in earlier than that guy in question might have done it differently. But the case I was talking about took place in the early 70's--which is when I was in.

[analyst]

Jas.Watson:
Oh hell, now I realize! I was in a different army! When you mentioned signing your last four SSN digits upside down. The army I joined (65). Everyone had their own ID numbers. If you were an enlisted soldier you had a RA (Regular Army Number), if you were a draftee you had a US (Draftee Number), if you had tried to evade the draft you had a special number for that! if you joined the Reserve you had a ER (Enlisted Reserve Number) if you were a guardsman you had national guard (NG) number. This is army only, of course.
I vaguely remember some headcounts, but still can't seem to recall signing for anything but field gear and arms. You could well be right. I seem to recall all officers came in through seperate enterances and never signed for anything. We never used our SSN for any type signing as I recall. In the field we signed nothing and were thankful for a hot meal once in a while.
Doggone it! I wish I could say you jogged my memory more. I will have to consider it some more. I can vaguely remember some guy sitting at some of the mess halls entrance, but in those days I think it was more an actual head count. I guess it just does not stand out in my mind, fun talking about it though. I want to tell you, I could easily be wrong about some of this. I wish I could talk to some of my old buddies about this, unfortunately most of them are gone now.

[markland]

LOL, all I remember about mess call, beyond conniving to miss the duty, was running in, shouting "Markland, RA." And boy, that was the first time I ran into bacon still with hair on it!

Billy

[Jas. Watson]

This discussion has kind of brought back a couple memories to me too.
That party I spoke of that started all this was quite a few years ago when all this stuff was fresher...it sure isn't now because it got me to thinking 'do I remember this straight?' I think I remember that party incident better than I remember the actual army.
Yes, I was kind of a late bloomer--I got drafted in Nov. of '65, but somehow they didn't take me (long story), but later went in just as things wound down in Vietnam--I never went there, but rather to Germany. The changeover from RA number to SS number was right about then.
If I remember right the jerk at that party was all full of doing all this super training to be some kind of cold war 'behind the iron curtain' type crap...yeah right. I have never heard of US soldiers doing anything behind the curtan have you all?

I have a friend who is just back from Iraq--I'll have to ask him about this messhall stuff, ah but he's a Colonel now so may not know.

Damn, if I don't remember a piece of bacon with hair on it too! Also chipping a tooth on a piece of French Toast!

The things one experiences.....

Jas~

[Melani]

I can understand people claiming to be Last Stand survivors--that would give them a certain hero status. And it is of course traditional for soldiers to make up B.S. war stories--though I'm sure none of you guys would ever do that! What I find hard to understand is the guy who confesses to a sicko murder he apparently didn't commit. Seems he has a long history of inappropriate interest in little girls--maybe he just longs for the bigtime.

We have a great family story of how my grandmother found a piano she didn't know about in the basement--except that after years of hearing and telling it, I found out it wasn't true. She actually bought the thing second-hand. But it's a great story that illustrates various character traits of the people involved, so I keep telling it--but then I can't help explaining that it's not really true. But it's the sort of thing that easily could have happened in my family, and tells the younger generation who didn't know them a lot about their great-grandparents.

A couple of years ago I attended a story-telling festival, where the star of the show was a guy who had repeatedly won the annual Liars Contest in his home state of West Virginia. He was of course doing it for entertainment. His stories all started out really plausible, and some stayed that way, but others eventually got really silly. In the end, I wasn't sure which parts were real.

[harpskiddie]

The only thing I remember about eating in the mess hall was trying to avoid the guy at the end of the line who insisted on throwing gravy over everything. No wait!! That was prison. Please disregard this post.

Gordie

[Melani]

admin said:

[
Yes, this was the year of speakers from another planet. I think conference planners should be sure there won't be a full moon during their conferences!

Does this have anything to do with "Mr. Swett and the Werewolf?" ;D

[Tricia]

This entire thread is starting to remind me of another one on another board. Why does everybody claim (it's particularly rampant in AR with the Trail of Tears) to have a Cherokee grandmother? And it's true! I'll start talking about my interest in Custer, and after they have recovered from the shock and put their teeth back in, they mention, "well, my grandma was a full-blood Cherokee, hair down to there ..."

I can't remember how many times this has happened ever since somebody brought this to my attention.

Gordie: hilarious, hilarious post!

[Tricia]

Melani--

So the Last Stand stories are fish tales gone awry?

[Melani]

ricemclean said:

Melani--

So the Last Stand stories are fish tales gone awry?

Well, probably. As was mentioned above, there may have been one or two actual survivors, but not the hundreds that claim to have been there. The trick is figuring out which is which.

I met a new volunteer at SF Maritime yesterday who says both he and his daddy were in the 7th. (Not with Custer, of course!) I didn't have much chance to pursue that, but when we get a chance for a good chat, I will be using my B.S. filter on whatever he tells me. I'm guessing from my initial take on him that most of what he says will be true, but some of it may be exaggerated for effect. I actually consider that a valid storytelling technique, provided you're not talking about major events in history.

When you get right down to it, nothing is impossible, but some things are more probable than others.

[Jas. Watson]

The volunteers you met could well be telling the truth--the seventh is an ongoing unit--still around today in some form or another.

My take on story telling (good oral tradition) is that qualitatives and quantifiers are fair game--how hot, cold, big, little, many, few, tall, short, late, early, etc. etc. just makes for good stories. But whether the kernel of the story is true, THAT is the criteria of a lyer or not. Whether I say I won a Silver Star in the military or not (I didn't) is either true or it isn't--I either got one or I didn't, I'm either telling the truth or I'm lying--one or the other. Now how many enemy tanks I blew up to get it and how I managed it...well that's open to 'interpretation'. And that depends on who I'd be telling the story to and how I wanted to 'present it'.

Hey, many could say they survived LBH--they did, a fact...because they weren't there.

Jas~

[Dark Cloud]

I suspect the claims for Cherokee bloodline originated in venal social climbing, and the fact that after everyone was smashed together into reservations in Oklahoma, so who outside the rez knew or could really prove different?

The Cherokee were the beloved Civilized Tribe of the justifiably guilt ridden whites, with many photos of tall elegant men and women in Anglo dress in the 19th century, and if you were part Indian the social climbing benefits in a white society at one time probably inspired many to claim that heritage rather than, say, Apache regardless of truth.

Now, of course, Central Casting Hitler Youth claim - brag! - of descent from Cochise and Quanah Parker and Crazy Horse. Good on 'em, but Ward Churchill was no trail blazer in fraud. But I'd bet DNA testing would scare many proud Cherokee claimants just as it does in my Scottish family history, where so many of our ancesters were not clan members but slaves or of unknown parentage and ended in America or Australia and just claimed the last name of the biggest clan leader in their past life. Who'd know? The MacLeods demand DNA testing for certain memberships now, I'm told. That's a slippery slope.

[jdmackintosh]

And this Carr claim ends the same way all the Custer sole survivor claimants concluded--came home today and caught the news where the Prosecutor has dismissed charges against Carr, so his name can now be officially added to the list of "wanna bes" that litter the landscape of the past and unfortunately confuse the unwary.

[Tricia]

And hopefully for Darkcloud, all will return to whatever passes for normal in Boulder. He had to hate those network krieg lights blinding him whilst watching repeats of Celebrity Fit Club and the play by play of the Rockies' games.

JMac--hope Ernesto steers clear!