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Post by jdmackintosh on Aug 20, 2006 12:52:36 GMT -5
Yes, there is a connection, although one of historical examples. The morning CNN Headline News had a report detailing the possibility that this guy Karr may have made a completely false confession when he claimed he killed Jon Benet Ramsey, perhaps doing so soley for the sake of publicity. The interesting segment then looked back to the Lindbergh Kidnapping case and stated that hundreds of people came forward to confess to having committed that crime. It then shifted to more recent times and the arrest of a murderer who claimed he killed over three hundred people (in reality, I think it said he had killed twelve, which is bad enough). There were other recent unsolved murders that have also been plagued with would-be claimants to the notoriety that comes with this heinous territory. Some of the confessions were made under questioning by law enforcement when the prolonged nature of the inquiry did something strange to the suspect's mind and he simply confessed, thinking everything would then improve!
Of course, you know where this is going, my mind immediately leaped to our near regimental-size cadre of Custer's Last Stand Sole Survivor claimants. We have debated, discussed and chuckled over this host of imposters, everyone from Frank Finkel to Billy Heath and many more. Somewhere in the minds of a number of people, there is a deep-seated longing for fame that leads them to confess murders, rapes, and kidnapping in our modern world or, in times now past, supply themselves as someone that can shed light on a battle with no soldier survivors. From Custer's Last Stand to the Lindbergh Case to the Ramsey Case, all of these have the commonality of having gripped the public imagination to a considerable degree and when that happens, the truth itself is subject to numerous kidnapping attempts.
If you are interested in the sole survivor phenomenon, Michaael Nunnally's I SURVIVED CUSTER'S LAST STAND is indispensible in its coverage of the wide variety of claimants. There is even better news, he is hard at work turning this booklet into a full-fledged book.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 20, 2006 18:01:58 GMT -5
Interesting. The false confession phenomenon could perhaps also apply to the Indians who claimed to kill Custer . . . or to those who now claim to have all of the answers!  |
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Post by jdmackintosh on Aug 20, 2006 20:42:07 GMT -5
Very true, Diane. I had no idea that the Lindbergh kidnapping drew nuts like bees to honey until I heard that CNN report.
Wasn't there an Indian at this year's CBHMA who claimed to be a direct descendant of Custer and Monahseetah? Here's our new trend for the 21st century, they may be more coming out of the woodwork very soon!
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Post by greenpheon on Aug 20, 2006 20:47:02 GMT -5
Well, when I was on recruiting duty in Chicago for four years I attended many boat shows, RV shows and other public events as a recruiter in uniform. If I met Patton's first sergeant once, I met him a dozen times. Only eclipsed by the number of times I met Patton's driver!
Greenpheon
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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 20, 2006 21:04:36 GMT -5
Wasn't there an Indian at this year's CBHMA who claimed to be a direct descendant of Custer and Monahseetah? Here's our new trend for the 21st century, they may be more coming out of the woodwork very soon! Yes, this was the year of speakers from another planet. I think conference planners should be sure there won't be a full moon during their conferences! Interesting note, Greenpheon. What is it? Do people get to a point in life where they have to feel as if they accomplished something -- even if it was just working with or meeting someone famous? |
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 21, 2006 3:47:00 GMT -5
It's everywhere, I think. I was at the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising in Dublin, and if every old man I met who claimed to have been in the General Post Office fight was telling the truth, they'd have been standing on each other's shoulders for lack of space!
Perhaps it's just that people love to tell a story and bewitch an audience ...?
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Post by Scout on Aug 21, 2006 7:59:33 GMT -5
John...as always thanks for the kind words. Certainly the so called 'sole survivor' of the LBH is nothing new. There are several books out now which expose fraudulent Vietnam vets. 'Stolen Valor' and 'Fake Warriors' are to excellent books on a hundreds perhaps thousands of bogus vet claims. I knew a guy who claimed to have been a CIA agent in Vietnam. I guess just being a soldiers wasn't enough. Anyway he claimed there were no military records on him for that reason. Kinda like a number of sole survivors who claimed to have been civilian scouts. This guy made up some of the most rididculous stories ever told. James Bond type stuff. Mutual firends who had been to the Nam said he was the biggest liar they had ever met. [here is a golden rule for military fakers: never try to sell your story to actual vets...they can tell in minutes if you are lying].
The strange thing about the LBH is the number of actual participants who made up whoppers. Goldin claimed to have been a messenger form Custer but had a hard time remembering his tale. The story changed at every telling and of course none of the officers ever mentioned him as a messenger. of course there were others.
I read a book several years ago on the second fight at Adobe Walls and seems that hundreds of men claimed to have fought there. Many were men of high standings in their communities. If all the men who claimed to have fought at the LBH had actually participated Custer would have had an additional 300 to 400 men. A highly interesting subject which has more to do with psychology than history.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 21, 2006 9:06:05 GMT -5
" never try to sell your story to actual vets...they can tell in minutes if you are lying."
Vets of what? Of service? Or of combat? While probably more correct than not, the fact remains that some fakers made a living lecturing at vet halls and officer groups without anyone catching on, at least for a while, and this because most vets weren't ever in combat either. Further, the truth meter is not set on high at vet watering holes, anyway, and BS is the spoken language by general acceptance at regular intervals.
And really, how many vets deliberately construct tales that allow people to assume they were combat vets when they were not? They haven't "lied" but they deliberately mislead. Most vets never were near combat ever, and are as easily faked as civvies.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Aug 21, 2006 10:37:11 GMT -5
The fakes are all over. I recently read about all the fake MOH winners out there, some even on the lecture circut, and the military's efforts to curb this (there are only currently 119 living MOH winners and they're all known).
I remember being at a party once and bunch of us got to telling 'war stories' about our times in the army. This one guy kept at it until we just knew he was 'full of --it' (why he did this, was beyond me). Anyway, then one guy asked him this simple question: When you sign the form at a mess hall when getting a meal--what is unusal about what is beside your signature?
The BS artist stumbled up short on that one...and all of us who had been in the army knew. A stupid every day occurance most soldiers don't even think about, but would remember when asked. I have to hand it to the guy who asked the question.
It was mighty embarrassing for him (and actually us too as we watched his discomfort).
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 21, 2006 10:48:09 GMT -5
And now with the "fake" Benet killer . . . people will say anything for 15 minutes of fame . . . most of them have a problem with reality.
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Post by analyst on Aug 21, 2006 11:32:09 GMT -5
Re: Phony Vets:
I too. have run into this phenomenon on numerous ocassions and do not pretend to really understand it. Any guy who was there will discover the lies very quickly. Yet I remember interviewing a sex offender who was being released who had a large 101st Airborne tatoo on his forearm. During the interview I asked him where he was stationed and who his commander was, late 60's? He rather quickly admitted he was never in the army! I asked him why the tattoo? He replied, "I just think it looks neat." OK!
The combat veterans I have associated with have been a widely varied mixture. They run the gamut from Mac, a Lt., one tour, who could not bear to talk about his experiences, to Sony who had killed many hundreds and loved to talk about it (his credentials as a Special Forces man who served in Africa to Cambodia were undisputable!). One friend, who admitted trying to dodge combat assignments was a truck driver who bribed his way into a warehouse clerk position still ended up manning a machinegun on the post perimeter on certain nights. You see in Vietnam there were no battle lines! Everyone got to get shot at. Very democratic don't you think?
There are few things as annoying as one who confesses falsely to a crime. Many hours must be spend either proving it or disproving it.
As far as survivors of the LBH, I suspect there may actually have been one or two. How can anyone say there were not when the army does not even know how many soldiers were actually there! Different days, different culture. Like Wyatt Earp is supposed to have said, Thats the whole truth, give or take a lie or two"!
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Post by harpskiddie on Aug 21, 2006 11:52:59 GMT -5
Most of us have some problem with reality in our lives, hence the popularity of lotteries and Las Vegas. People who adopt either a false identity, or a partially false personal history is a "horse of another colour" [sorry. Horse, that just slipped out], and probably lacking something in their real lives. Give a listen to Jimmy Webb's "Mr. Shuck 'n Jive" sometime.
I knew a couple of Vietnam combat veterans, who had the decorations and missing or defaced body parts to prove it. Neither of them were much on talking about their experiences, except to one another. Anybody who says he was a CIA agent, in the Nam or anywhere else, is almost certain to be a liar - sorta like that character in True Lies.
Gordie
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Post by rch on Aug 21, 2006 12:20:17 GMT -5
Jas. Watson
Except sometimes when I was eating at another unit's mess hall I don't remember having to sign a form. When I had CQ and Headcount, I can vaguely remenber having to make sure that officers and men who lived off post signed in and paid for the meal. What was unusual?
rch
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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 21, 2006 12:30:17 GMT -5
Anyway, then one guy asked him this simple question: When you sign the form at a mess hall when getting a meal--what is unusal about what is beside your signature? You are killing me, Watson. What's the answer???  Have you noticed that the one who starts the conversation about war stories is usually the liar?  |
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 21, 2006 13:36:51 GMT -5
Times must have changed . . . when I was in the service (late 60s) I never paid for a meal in the mess hall (it showed, the food was bad)
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