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Post by Tricia on Sept 6, 2007 21:39:24 GMT -6
Okay ...
I don't particularly believe this, but I know we've got a smattering of opinions on this subject ... did GAC get to know Eliza Brown in the biblical way?
Or is it just another tall tale from Captain Benteen?
Once again, I don't think there are right or wrong answers ... just let your ideas fly ...
Trish
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Post by elisabeth on Sept 7, 2007 4:03:36 GMT -6
I'd believe Benteen. (But then I always do.)
The best support for the story, perhaps, is the way Libbie fires her suddenly in 1869. She's already had to put up with gossip about Monaseetah, which must have been humiliating enough. (We can be sure she had heard the gossip, from the way she stresses the thorough Cheyenne-ness of the baby in her book.) If she then found out about Eliza, it would be more than she could stand. Out she'd have to go.
It's telling that in the books, she makes up a touching fiction about why Eliza left -- "you's always got the ginnel, but I ain't got nobody" and all that. She pretends it was Eliza's idea. But at the time, she writes to a friend that she's fired Eliza because she "went on a spree and was insolent". Since "insolent" was Eliza's middle name, bless her, it would take something a lot worse than her normal everyday barefaced cheek to make Libbie get rid of her long-term friend and confidante. My guess would be that the "spree" part was true, and that Eliza said something in her cups that made clear what had been going on.
It wasn't just Benteen, by the way. In another of the splendid Thomas P. Lowry's books, Sexual Misbehaviour in the Civil War, there's a clipping from a Southern newspaper (as Lowry admits, "sadly missing the source and date"), which reads: "Miscegenation ------- A good story is told by a Lynchburg soldier who was in the fight with Sheridan and Custer at Trevillian Depot near Louisa Court house. Hampton captured Carter's [sic] headquarters, taking therefrom his commission, a picture of the white wife he left at home, and another piece of camp equipage in the shape of a miulatto woman who was temporarily supplying the place of Mrs. Custer. The paramour was in a carriage attended by another darkey, and when our boys made the charge the black driver fled leaving Mrs. Custer and her carriage in our hands. One of our soldiers, whose name has been given to us, mounted the carriage intending to drive it to the rear, but being hard pressed by the enemy he descended from his box, cut loose the horses, and, by the aid of some of his fellows, toppled the carriage containing the colored lady, over a precipice. They stayed long enough to enjoy the fun, and to hear the cries of her ladyship, who, shut up in the carriage, was gravitating to the depths below. Custer afterwards sent for the articles that were captured, including his wife's picture, but made no enquiry about his colored spouse. This is a veritable truth, and 'we tell the tale as it 'twas told to us'." OK, it's useful Southern propaganda, but even so ...
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Post by strange on Sept 7, 2007 6:41:07 GMT -6
Ah Custer! You rascal! Honestly, and I don't have any records on hand at the moment, I haven't quite seen anything to really convince me that Custer was un-faithful to Libbie during the Civil War and I'm deeply positve that if he was unfaithful, it wouldn't have been with Eliza! Record definitely shows, however, that Custer likes darker women and there may be clear and definite record of him going with what I think are called "squaws" ( I'm a bit rusty on Indian words for women) during the Indian wars. Libbie herself is pretty dark haired, kind of like an Indian woman herself. Its not wise to trust southerners, so I wouldn't take their words on anything if I were any of you. Custer can be a big horn dog if he wanted to, but he had control of himself and I still say you only will find better leads for post civil war. Plus its still likely that Tom was the horndog during the Indian wars and that Custer got the bad wrap because no one seems to be able to distinguish the two brothers apart, ever! Any time you catch wind of too many wild nights, its likely Tom and not George. There may have been times when Custer committed adultery when he was jealous of Libbie and was under some kind of "you cheat, I cheat spell" but thats the best you would have to go off on. Frankly, I'm hearing too many stories of back door sexuality through out history and I think it can often be hot air. Custer apparently had some wild sex days in his youth, once rumored with 4 or 5 woman at once, but he stopped whoring himself after a bad run in with a hooker that left him sterile before he married Libbie. Take it or leave it, thats the best I got for Custer's rumored sexual romps. Don't believe hearsay, nothing that Custer has done has ever been hushed out, there's a clear record for anything he has ever done I assure you all. Benteen can go straight to hell!
The Strange One
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Post by elisabeth on Sept 7, 2007 7:35:11 GMT -6
Hmmm ... Re Custer's good behaviour or otherwise in the Civil War, you may be overlooking the Annie Jones story: capecodconfidential.com/cccanniejones011230.shtmlI don't see that Eliza's so improbable, really: she was young, she was pretty, she was fun, and above all she was around when Libbie wasn't. And, things being as they were in 19th-century America, she'd have fully understood that there'd be no question of marriage or anything of that kind. A very convenient arrangement, I should think ...
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Post by strange on Sept 7, 2007 12:08:02 GMT -6
Annie Jones,eh? Indeed, plenty of strange goings ons, but nothing to really paint Custer as an adulterer at this point of his life. I'll stick with Custer's side of the story unless more information comes afloat, I'm not buying Annie Jones. Its so easy for people to jump to conclusions when strange women are in strange places at odd times but Custer can't help it if some whacky dame is floating about his camp, he said exactly how he handled her and I see no reason to not believe him. I don't see where every one gets off accusing Custer of sleeping with every woman he's been photographed or associated with, thats all bloated hearsay and not enough to go on. Where does Custer get the time to go about with all these dames? Since when do legs and butts start falling out of the sky? This isn't "Days of our Lives", Custer is not behaving like he was behaving out of order, there's no good suspicion to go off of HERE. No one knows the deal with Annie Jones and Custer's own words on her are the best explanation I can find for the strange girl hanging about. As far as Eliza goes.........Is she pretty? .........yes........Is she available?...........Maybe........But I don't go around mounting every pretty, available girl in the room! Custer is not some nutter who goes about diddling his willy in front of every dame that passes by or happens to be working around him! Eliza has a legitimate profession, she's not some old hoochie who goes kicking up her knickers for married men! Its real absurd to make accusations at him just because SHE happens to be THERE! Custer is a man of civil rights and equality, and people who didn't like him for that started spinning all these ridiculous rumors on him just because he did whats right. There's nothing "convenient" about Custer juggling 40 broads, have you ever seen Jerry Springer!? It would be a madhouse if he went about doing these things he's accused of doing. No one in their right minds can possibly think that Custer can go in and out with all these hoochies while we have a war to be fought! Libbie was around him all the time, he insisted on having her around, he didn't go about as if he were a sneaky snook. Custer is a very busy guy, his glorious exploits made him the youngest US general in history at age 23! Thats kind of better than Napoleon! Eliza was a good friend of the Custer clan, she was family and she was with them for years.
Stranger!
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Post by Tricia on Sept 7, 2007 14:28:31 GMT -6
One thing--in addition to the many other gems--I have really enjoyed in Lowry's writings is his sense to hold back the Tupperware obsession and not follow just a rumour trail (unlike Roy Bird). Everything he mentions is backed up by primary sources. His narrative alone will make me take a second look at Miss Brown ...
As for Annie Jones, she does appear to be a pathetic story who might have expanded upon a minute truth and gone wild! Her biggest problem was Kilpatrick, I think. On the "men are snakes" front, he was, hands-down, a champion ...
--t.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 7, 2007 20:32:05 GMT -6
Its not wise to trust southerners, so I wouldn't take their words on anything if I were any of you. I'm sure you meant southern Iowans, right?
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Post by Montana Bab on Sept 7, 2007 21:32:25 GMT -6
Its not wise to trust southerners, so I wouldn't take their words on anything if I were any of you. I'm sure you meant southern Iowans, right? Nice retort, Diane! (We know for sure it wasn't southern Montanans!)
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Post by gocav76 on Sept 7, 2007 23:54:39 GMT -6
I voted "Absolutely. They got it on." Eliza spent more time away from the camp, and in the field with Custer than Libbie did. Thus I believe Benteen.
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Post by strange on Sept 8, 2007 5:44:31 GMT -6
I voted "Absolutely. They got it on." Eliza spent more time away from the camp, and in the field with Custer than Libbie did. Thus I believe Benteen. Once again, I wouldn't trust a rotten Confederate if my life depended on it. Secondly, since when does spending time together suddenly mandate acts of fornication? I stand by my vote, "Absolutely Not!". Eliza was good friends with the general, was a good cook, and good friends and good cooks are meant to stick around. Too much of these stories are far too ambiguous, NOTHING IS AMBIGUOUS WHEN YOUR DEALING WITH GEORGE ARMSTRONG CUSTER! Whatever he does or did is in the record. No one is sticking up to hide things for him. There should be a whole new thread based on Benteen's credibility. I'm genuinely irritated at the depictions of this wretched nit wit. I have seen movies and recreations that have given Benteen a gentlemanly british voice while then turning around and handing Custer a full on Hillbilly dialect! Custer ain't from no south! He's a German, from Michigan, and he is way more highly grammared than Benteen could ever hope for. Benteen is a fat old bum, I wish Custer had finished him in the Civil War. (forgive me if some of you young southerners are offended. I've gotten real freakin' tired of people like Ken Burns saying bad things about Custer while then turning over to smooch on Nathan Bedford Forrest! Custer was no racist, and he was dedicated to freeing the slaves, more so than others could understand the true and absolute purpose and honour of that particular war. Ken Burns has the nerve to stand up and smooch all over the rear of our nation's most abominable "hero" who founded one of the most hideous groups imaginable. Custer had to stick around after the civil war to suppress the rotten Klan, which was the same as it ever was. Nathan Bedford Forrset did participate in Lynchings, he only resigned when the negroes started being tortured. I hope I'm not being unfair to the counter arguments by using Forrest as a model for the south but at the same time I feel there must be some kind of grande conspiracy out to debunk and rob the Union warriors of their dignity and fortitude. ) Stranger of the shadows...................................................................
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Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 8, 2007 10:09:30 GMT -6
Ken Burns was born in Brooklyn, New York, so you can't blame the South for his presentation of Custer. Neither should you judge the South by the actions of a man who died 130 years ago. As tired as you are of people "saying bad things about Custer," I am equally tired of the stereotypes attached to Southerners. It is offensive.
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Post by Tricia on Sept 8, 2007 10:48:36 GMT -6
Strange--
Your assessments, are indeed, strange. Where did all of this Southern hatred come from? For every Nathan Bedford Forrest, there was a Patrick Cleburne--men who were against slavery and still, fought for the right to keep the Feds off their back. And for all of his problems, you can't say Benteen didn't have his act together in the ACW. He lost his family over his decision to fight for the Union--and if you have no empathy for that kind of loss--then you're the one who has problems. And on top of that, as brilliantly as GAC worked within the Armies of the Potomac and Shenandoah, Benteen was in Missouri, facing perhaps the worst front of the entire war. He didn't get his brevets for nothing--not in that theatre. I happen to go to Missouri several times a year and those people are still overjoyed that men like Fred Benteen brought their state back to a semblence of law and order instead of completely falling prey to idiots like Jessie James ... and this was despite the fact he was from Virginia!
So weigh your words a bit more carefully, I'd suggest. And don't forget these facts; GAC didn't fight against slavery, he fought for the Union. It's a very precise difference and despite a few incidents when he stuck up for Eliza's right to be served at their table, he shared the same prejudices towards the Negros as did the vast majority of whites. When he was in Texas--and all the troubles he experienced there--he didn't even think African Americans could count!
I think this is where Dark Cloud is absolutely right: people lump their own emotional baggage into their ideal figure of Custer. He was a man of his times, with nobilty and faults. The sooner you understand that--speaking as one who has impressed Steve Alexander with my portrayal of him--the better off you'll be. He's the one who said, "you are the first novelist who gets Custer completely right." And believe me, I wear that complement like a badge of honor! I say this not to garner praise or to bring him trouble from a bunch of idiots and groupies, but rather, as a way for you to see GAC's humanity. Leave your personal baggage at the door when it comes to historical figures--it only shadows your understanding of them. Get with the human, all right?
As a transplanted Yankee who lives in Razorback Country, let me inform you that I do wear shoes everyday and I even take the dishes out of the sink before I pee in it!
Trish
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Post by Tricia on Sept 8, 2007 10:50:58 GMT -6
Okay, gang ...
I guess the secret's out. Ugh.
--t.
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Post by strange on Sept 8, 2007 13:13:58 GMT -6
Well, first of all, I wasn't talking about PRESENT DAY SOUTHERNERS! I know Trish is from Arkansas. But, indeed, I stand by the idea of NOT TRUSTING FORMER CONFEDERATE SOLDIERS! Things would have gone way better for Custer if he had been given a sturdy Union command. The only southern warrior I like is Lee, and maybe Stonewall (but I have to read up more). And I still say there are far too many confederates that pop up after the war to engage in dirty dealings. Namely that old rat Jesse James and others who, ONCE AGAIN, rode with NATHAN BEDFORD FORREST! I should mention Custer is bigger and stronger than Forrest was any day of the weak, and if they had met, Forrest would not be in very good shape going one on one with Custer. Even the Indians only won by EXTREME numbers, Custer is known to have taken on 2 to 1 odds from the south. Food for thought! Did not mean to offend. I'm a writer and I have tendency to get on a flow, sometimes poeticism really hurts.
STRANGER THAN FICTION!
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Post by strange on Sept 8, 2007 13:38:29 GMT -6
One more word, by and by. In regard to Custer's Civil rights beliefs, I believe he said something like "I believe in the civilization of the negro and the accepting of them into the 20th century......" or something like that, right? Also, in regard to Custer's "incidents" of prejudice, and this is a whole new thread someday, any one of that day would be surprised by Negroes who could count or read because the Southerners often did not teach them. The question is not whether he was surprised, but whether he flipped out and suddenly beat up a black fella for being educated, like Ty Cobb was known to do often. Yes, I do hear Libbie was prejudice, I don't deny her feelings of supremecy over blacks. But yes, Custer did get inspired, from what I hear, to freeing the slaves when he heard Lincoln's speech. Custer went so far as to even stand AGAINST MCLELLEN when he was filled with the purpose of freeing the slaves. Some of Custer's "pompous" personality ticks I think can be considered to be "heroic" personality ticks in the regard of Custer building himself up like a superhero, and even wearing his own outfit by the way. There should be a whole new thread on the topic of Custer's "racism". The only racist incidents I know from Custer come more from the ill grammar of the time in referencing some one's basic description. To this day the debate rages on as to what to describe people as. You can't say African American, because Jamaicans are also black. Colored doesn't work, the N' word is most unacceptable (I can't recall Custer using the mean slang by the way. From his words I've heard him call white people "White", called black people "Negroe", and I think he may have used the term "red skin" but I think he usually just says "Indian".) so you can understand where some have trouble. To call Custer a racist you must point out incidents where he literally said something like "I'm better than negroes and Indians, and whites will rein forever!" or you have to show him making fun of Negroes or beating them up, or something tangible. Of coarse I suppose, if made in the proper context, Custer's comment about Negroes not being able to count could be deemed racial humor if he indeed said it a certain way. As far as I know, Custer knows his civil rights better than most people do today and I was impressed by what I found of his exploits. But to tricia, thanks for the Benteen info about him joining the Union, I definitely went beyond my reach to speak on him, because I only know him as Custer's enemy for the most part. Thanks! I'm sure your bare feet are none too callused, hee, hee!
Strange days Strange!
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