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Post by elisabeth on Jan 21, 2007 16:59:00 GMT -6
Leyton --
Could be. Or Sturgis might have recommended him earlier; or Terry might have observed for himself that he was neither of the pro- nor anti- Custer camp. We seem to have very little on the interplay between various officers before, say, June 22nd. But certainly his background as a highly-regarded staff officer to Shields, Buford, McClellan, Buford again, and then Stoneman, with commendations from all, might have been persuasive. If the Custer-Reno and Benteen-Custer animosity was apparent, Keogh was the next ranking officer, and one with no obvious axe to grind.
A planning type and a combat type, which was a rare combination in the CW. Plus with plenty of Indian experience, albeit not in the two "headline" engagements. So, might make sense ...
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Post by douglas on Jan 21, 2007 21:37:10 GMT -6
Keogh had plenty of Indian fighting experience? When?
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Post by Tricia on Jan 21, 2007 22:51:59 GMT -6
douglas--
I'm guessing any experience came whilst Keogh was in command of Fort Wallace. I'm not sure how many Indians he encountered there, but surely there were a few. I'm certain Elisabeth can elucidate.
--LMC
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 22, 2007 3:17:51 GMT -6
Ah, well, note that I sneakily said "Indian experience", not "Indian fighting experience" -- though he had that too ...
Yes, the Fort Wallace time principally. He got his first close-up look at Indians even before he got to Wallace, stopping off en route for the Fort Zarah Cheyenne Council. Once at Wallace, he had Comstock as tutor, which can't be bad (Custer considered himself an Indian expert after a few conversations with Comstock), and then the total-immersion experience of Indians constantly attacking stage stations, settlers, emigrant trains, and Fort Wallace itself throughout much of 1867. Admittedly he chased them more than he caught them, but he certainly got to know their ways of making war. Fort Wallace was right on the front line. (To quote Leo E. Oliva's Fort Wallace, Sentinel on the Smoky Hill Trail, troops stationed there "faced more Indian opposition and engaged in more battles than at any other post in Kansas".) No set-piece battles that Keogh was involved in, but a fair few scraps here and there.
Then there was the 1868 campaign, with Sully. Plenty of pretty fierce skirmishes with Indians in that, including, it seems, one in which he had his horse shot from under him. (According to the stories of how he came to ride Comanche, at least.) So he was no stranger to close-in Indian fighting, as well as having learned the hard way about the difficulties of tracking them down.
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Post by PhillyBlair on Jan 22, 2007 7:06:07 GMT -6
To go back to the initial question, here's what we've learned -- Libbie received a few letters from participants, none of which gave her details of the battle. She was removed from the participants shortly after the battle, and we have no evidence of her speaking in depth to any of them at a later date.
So we're left with three options:
1. She didn't want to know -- too painful. 2. She didn't want to know the truth -- ashamed. 3. She knew, but didn't want to shatter the image.
Which one is it? What do you think?
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 22, 2007 7:49:40 GMT -6
I thought (3) at first, but now I think I incline towards (2). Look how quickly she skipped out of Monroe. It can't have been easy living alongside the likes of Annie Yates and Maggie Calhoun, knowing that her husband had got theirs killed. Away from them, she could rewrite history and make it all someone else's fault. So, same thing, perhaps, with the officer survivors. If no-one insisted on confusing her with the facts, she could make up her own more satisfactory version. (Or have Nelson Miles do it for her.)
She might also have wanted to avoid hearing anyone sing Benteen's praises. She'd always loathed him; too galling by far to see him emerging as "saviour of the Seventh", especially as that implied the reverse role for Custer. If hearing the details meant hearing good things about him, she definitely wouldn't want to know.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 22, 2007 8:09:35 GMT -6
More than likely Custer bragged up his opinions to his brothers . . . sorta like "family talk". And let's not forget's Custer's boast to a friend that he would cut loose from Terry when he could. Custer liked to talk (one of the many reasons for Benteen's feelings)
While Boston did not have much military experience, he would certainly believe everything his famous brother would spout and spread the word to other family members/friends.
The letter was not meant for the public . . . it just happened that eventually he did become known and it fits Custer's persona.
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Post by PhillyBlair on Jan 22, 2007 11:49:52 GMT -6
Elisabeth, I had the same progression as you. When I began this thread I was #3, but had an inkling that #2 may be a possibility. The more we've gone through this, the more I believe that shame is a big part of her response. What else explains the refusal to attend any anniversaries even after nearly everyone involved is dead? Since she had created a hero, why not go and accept the lauds of the fallen hero? She used the name far too much to feign humility and indifference on those occasions.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 22, 2007 12:39:34 GMT -6
I thought Maggie & Libbie were on good terms for the remainder of Maggie's life. However, when Maggie remarried, I believe Libbe objected.
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Post by harpskiddie on Jan 22, 2007 16:32:26 GMT -6
I believe Libbie and Annie Yates remained close. Libbie certainly spent lots of time talking to Godfrey. and also had, I think, an open invitation for men of the Seventh to stop by when nearby. She certainly corresponded with several who had written to her..
Gordie
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Post by Tricia on Jan 22, 2007 21:05:19 GMT -6
This might be more of a hypothetical question, but did Libbie have it in her makeup to actually feel shame towards her husband's actions and positions? I'm wondering if she saw her own truth when it came to her beloved Autie ... a kind of truth no one outside of their relationship could have ever deciphered.
Regards, LMC
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Post by rch on Jan 23, 2007 1:34:38 GMT -6
Elizabeth
I'm not familiar with Edgerly's Gracie letter. Where can I find it?
Edgerly's reference to Custer wanting Keogh to command on the morning of the 25th may be related to the Officer of the Day question I asked on another thread. Keogh may have been the Officer of the Day on the morning of the 25th, as he was performing the duties Benteen wrote where those of the OD. Normally the OD would serve the whole day. Custer may have wanted Keogh in the fight rather than in command of the rear guard.
This might be a better explanation of Edgerly's statement, since normally Keogh was at least a company commander anyway.
Incidently this might also mean that McDougal took over as OD.
rch
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Post by PhillyBlair on Jan 23, 2007 6:13:11 GMT -6
rch,
There's a book called, "Scalp Dance" that is a collection of Edgerly's letters. Nothing eye opening except the one to Gracie. If you email me with your address I can send you a "loaner."
Also, I've had some luck in the past with Georgetown University. They have a letter from Edgerly to Otto Hein (sp?) an old classmate. They may have more of his letters there as well. What's more is they sent it to me free of charge. You gotta love that.
Blair
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Post by elisabeth on Jan 23, 2007 6:23:51 GMT -6
[Blair -- sorry, was posting while you were posting!]
rch,
The letter to Gracie is reproduced in George M. Clark's Scalp Dance: The Edgerly Papers on the Battle of the Little Big Horn, pages 24 & 25 (transcript) and 26-32 (facsimile). Plenty of other good stuff in the book too, so worth getting if you haven't got it and can pick up a copy cheap. Your explanation may well be correct; but it's the context -- Custer treating everybody fairly, no fault found with his actions, gives Keogh a fitting command -- that makes it sound as if it could have more significance. And he must have felt it would mean something to Gracie, which a mere shuffling of OD duties surely would not.
Leyton, Gordie,
Not sure. She could cope with talking to enlisted men OK; she could rely on them to doff their caps, shuffle their feet, and be respectful and adoring. But apart from Godfrey, she does seem to have almost pointedly steered clear of any other surviving 7th Cavalry officers.
I wonder if she'd have let Weir visit, if he'd lived? Or would she have found some pressing engagement that made it impossible for her to see him?
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 23, 2007 8:09:22 GMT -6
I have Scalp Dance . . . not for the faint of heart . . . but very good in understanding that it wasn't just Indians who committed "outrages"
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