Co C on Greasy Grass Ridge?

[conz]

Not much evidence on this probable action, but for some C Co bodies in the GGR vicinity, and various Native witness accounts.

Clair

[conz]

Here are some Native accounts that may pertain to an action here:

“While Custer was all surrounded, there had been no firing from either side. The Sioux then made a charge from the rear side, shooting into the men, and the shooting frightened the horses so that they rushed upon the ridge and many horses were shot. The return fire was so strong that the Sioux had to retreat back over the hill again. I left my men there and told them to hold that position and then I rushed around the hills and came up to the north end of the field near where the monument now stands. And I saw hundreds and hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around. The Indians dismounted and tied their horses in a bunch and got down into the coulees, shooting at the soldiers from all sides. From the point that juts out just below where the monument stands about thirty of us got through the line, firing as we went, and captured a lot of Custer's horses and drove them down to the river. The horses were so thirsty that the moment we reached the river they just stood and drank and drank, and that gave us a chance to get off our horses and catch hold of the bridles. They were all loaded with shells and blankets and everything that the soldiers carried with them. Just then I returned to my men, and the soldiers were still on the hill fighting, with some of their horses near them. Just as I got back some of the soldiers made a rush down the ravine toward the river, and a great roll of smoke seemed to go down the ravine. This retreat of the soldiers down the ravine was met by the advance of the Indians from the river, and all who were not killed came back again to the hill. After the soldiers got back from the hills they made a stand all in a bunch. Another charge was made and they retreated along the line of the ridge; it looked like a stampede of buffalo. On this retreat along the ridge, the soldiers were met by my band of Indians as well as other Sioux. The soldiers now broke the line and divided, some of them going down the eastern slope of the hill, and some of them going down to the river. The others came back to where the final stand was made on the hill, but they were few in number then. The soldiers then gathered in a group, where the monument now stands.” -- Runs the Enemy

“After the long time of the slow fighting, about forty of the soldiers came galloping from the east part of the ridge down toward the river, toward where most of the Cheyennes and many Ogallalas were hidden. The Indians ran back to a deep gulch. The soldiers stopped and got off their horses when they arrived at a low ridge where the Indians had been. Lame White Man, the Southern Cheyenne chief, came on his horse and called us to come back and fight. In a few minutes the warriors were all around these soldiers. Then Lame White Man called out:
"Come. We can kill all of them."
All around, the Indians began jumping up, running forward, dodging down, jumping up again, down again, all the time going toward the soldiers. Right away, all of the white men went crazy. Instead of shooting us, they turned their guns upon themselves. Almost before we could get to them, every one of them was dead. They killed themselves.
The Indians took the guns of these soldiers and used them for shooting at the soldiers on the high ridge.” – Wooden Leg

Personally, he was with the Indians to the east, or on Custer's right. Custer charged the Indians twice but could not drive them away, and then the battle became furious. It did not appear to him that a stand was made by Custer's men anywhere except at the monument. He was in the gully and saw the soldiers killed on the side hill (Keogh) as they "marched" toward the high ground at end of ridge (monument). They made no stand here, but all were going toward the high ground at end of ridge. – Foolish Elk

More and more soldiers were getting off their horses, preferring to hide or crawl along the ground. The ride by the river became a focal point as bands of warriors moved toward the waiting soldiers. Hundreds of Indians had begun to crawl toward them along crevices and gullies. Some soldiers mounted an attack off the ridge, galloping on their horses toward a group of Cheyennes and Oglalas. The Indians scattered to safety, and the white men dismounted again to hide along a second ridge. As hundreds of Indians surrounded this ridge I saw one of the soldiers point his pistol at his head and pull the trigger. – Kate Bighead

"Calhoun's company, leaving the command and charging down the ridge on the hill where the Indians were, drove them before him, but soon after was surrounded and all were killed." – White Bull

"The soldiers kept running as if in a part of a circle and the last of them had turned to run toward the river again, when all were killed." – Shave Elk

Halfway down the slope of the hogback toward the river, about forty soldiers of Company C mounted their sorrel horses and broke out of encirclement. Charging west, they came galloping toward the deep gulch held by most of the Cheyennes and many Oglalas and Brules. The Indians fell back, drawing them on. When the troopers reached a low ridge just vacated by the Indians, they halted and dismounted. Down in the gulch, Lame White Man, the Southern Cheyenne chief who had to fight because he had no sons, rallied the warriors. 'Come on!' he shouted, 'now we can kill them all!...Working their way carefully up the low ridge, the Indians closed in for an attack. Suddenly the soldiers went crazy. Instead of firing at the attacking Indians, they began shooting at one another and at themselves. Before any warrior could charge them, all but four were dead." – Story of Lame White Man

Chief Lame White man was 37 years old when he died and left behind a widow and two daughters. He is credited with encouraging the warriors to resist the "soldier" excursion into Calhoun Coulee in which the warriors initially fled at their approach. Contrary to the work published by Dr. marquis who stated that Two Moon led the Cheyennes at the Little Big Horn, Wooden Leg says it was Lame White Man. A Southern Cheyenne, Lame White Man had been with the northern branch for so long that he, and his wife and children were considered to be part of the Northern Cheyenne. He was also referred to as Walking White. In the heat of battle he received mortal wounds and succumbed to these wounds on Custer Ridge. His body was subsequently mistaken as a "Ree" scout for the soldiers and, as a result, scalped by the infuriated Sioux warriors. -- Realbird

Clair

[mwkeogh]

Here's my take on 'Runs the Enemy's version of the battle, my own clarifications in underline parenthesis:

My understanding of Runs the Enemy's version of the battle, however, does not describe the action with C Co. on Finley Ridge at all. I have this warrior's position placed on the Eastern Ridge just behind Calhoun Hill and about opposite where Calhoun's led horses were being kept and watched over by a mounted detachment of Co C under 1st Sgt. Bobo. From here, Runs the Enemy describes the scattering of many of L Co's horses and the retreat of the horseholders and C Co. detachment to Keogh's swale position on the east side of Battle Ridge. At this point, Runs the Enemy skips the description of the action at the Keogh position and instead describes his rides north to Custer's battalion fighting around Last Stand Hill and the Cemetery Hill area at a time after Keogh's position has already collapsed and retreated to LSH. This, I believe was an error made by the tranlator, who got his story out of sequence, for Runs the Enemy, in the last paragraph below, returns to describe the end of Keogh's battlalion down in the swale behind Battle Ridge. The 1st paragraph describes the capture of Calhoun's horses behind Calhoun Hill and the subsequent retreat into Keogh's swale; the 2nd paragraphs jumps to a description of the action around Last Stand Hill and the capture of E Co's horse and E Co's subsequent charge down into Deep Ravine; while the 3rd paragraph returns to describe the action around the Keogh position. Needless to say, it is my opinion that paragraph 2 and 3 should be reversed to get an accurate description of Runs the Enemy's version of the battle.

“While Custer (Keogh's battalion) was all surrounded, there had been no firing from either side (indicating that Keogh had maintained his defensive position for a period of time and was not overwhelmed during his retreat from MTF). The Sioux then made a charge from the rear side (ie: from the eastern ridge behind Calhoun Hill), shooting into the men, and the shooting frightened the horses so that they rushed upon the ridge and many horses were shot (this describes the 1st charge of the Indians against the horseholders behind Calhoun's Hill, guarded by a detachment of C Co under 1st Sgt. Bobo). The return fire was so strong that the Sioux had to retreat back over the hill again. (this attack was repulsed by Keogh's men, however it caused the loss of several L Co horses.).

I left my men there (on the Eastern Ridge behind Calhoun Hill) and told them to hold that position (on the Eastern Ridge) and then I rushed around the hills and came up to the north end of the field near where the monument now stands (Runs the Enemy now rides north along the backside of Eastern Ridge until he arrives at a position north of the monument on LSH). And I saw hundreds and hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around (LSH & Cemetery Ridge). The Indians dismounted and tied their horses in a bunch and got down into the coulees, shooting at the soldiers from all sides. From the point that juts out just below where the monument stands (there is a knoll at this position which blocked the view from LSH on the NE side of the hill) about thirty of us got through the line, firing as we went, and captured a lot of Custer's horses and drove them down to the river (here, Runs the Enemy takes part in the charge--often attributed to the suicide boys-- into the gulch between LSH and Cemetery Ridge that scattered many of the horses of E Co. being held there. These horses were thus driven down towards Deep Ravine and out to the ford at its mouth). The horses were so thirsty that the moment we reached the river they just stood and drank and drank, and that gave us a chance to get off our horses and catch hold of the bridles (he and his warriors are now at the mouth of Deep Ravine ford C). They were all loaded with shells and blankets and everything that the soldiers carried with them. Just then I returned to my men, and the soldiers were still on the hill (LSH) fighting, with some of their horses near them (these would be the horses of F Co on the west side of LSH). Just as I got back some of the soldiers (this would be E Co's dismounted troopers in an effort to retrieve their lost horses) made a rush down the (Deep) ravine toward the river, and a great roll of smoke seemed to go down the ravine. This retreat (actually the advance) of the soldiers down the ravine was met by the advance of the Indians from the river, and all who were not killed came back again to the hill (LSH). After the soldiers got back from the hills they made a stand all in a bunch (at Last Stand Hill).

Another charge was made (now Runs the Enemy has jumped back to describe the action in the Keogh sector along Battle Ridge; this charge forced Sgt. Bobo's C Co. troopers and L Co's horseholders to retreat into Keogh's swale along Battle Ridge) and they retreated along the line of the ridge; it looked like a stampede of buffalo (due to the successful stampede of L Co's horses along Battle Ridge and down into the swale; it gave the appearance of a Buffalo Stampede and caused confusion among the ranks of Keogh's troopers in the swale). On this retreat along the ridge, the soldiers were met by my band of Indians as well as other Sioux (ie: Crazy Horse and White Bull). The soldiers now broke the line and divided, some of them going down the eastern slope of the hill, and some of them going down to the river (this describes the retreat to LSH by those of Keogh's battalion who were still mounted). The others came back to where the final stand was made on the hill, but they were few in number then. The soldiers then gathered in a group, where the monument now stands.” -- Runs the Enemy

Personally, he was with the Indians to the east, or on Custer's right. Custer charged the Indians twice but could not drive them away, and then the battle became furious. It did not appear to him that a stand was made by Custer's men anywhere except at the monument. He was in the gully and saw the soldiers killed on the side hill (Keogh) as they "marched" toward the high ground at end of ridge (monument). They made no stand here, but all were going toward the high ground at end of ridge. – Foolish Elk

The above description given by Foolish Elk concerns the fighting in Keogh's swale on the east side of Battle Ridge. I do not believe this is a description of the action of C Co. at Finley Ridge.

[conz]

Bill,

Good investigation on examining Runs The Enemy's critical testimony. How did he approach the battlefield? Let's look at this passage...

RTE has just listened to Sitting Bull who was on his horse encouraging a bunch of Natives coming back from the Reno fight. Many Sioux and Cheyenne have already begun "surrounding" the Keogh squadron...

"We were all hidden along the ridge of hills. While Sitting-Bull was telling this I looked up and saw that the Cheyennes had made a circle around Custer on the west, north, and east sides, and that left a gap on the south side for us to fill."

This early location was with SB, so it must be near the MTC ford...I don't think SB ever left the village area.

"We then filled up the gap, and as we did so we looked over to the Cheyenne side, and there was a woman among the Cheyennes who was nearest the soldiers trying to fight them."

Don't you think the "Cheyenne" side was the Deep Ravine area? And where do you think the "gap" on the "south" side is? I'm thinking he and his 130 Two Kettles are on Greasy Grass Ridge. You can see the Cheyennes from there, but you can't see them from the east side of Battle Ridge.

"While Custer was all surrounded, there had been no firing from either side. The Sioux then made a charge from the rear side, shooting into the men, and the shooting frightened the horses so that they rushed upon the ridge and many horses were shot. The return fire was so strong that the Sioux had to retreat back over the hill again."

I'm thinking these are Gall's boys in the Henryville area...or from Nye Ridge.

"I left my men there and told them to hold that position and then I rushed around the hills and came up to the north end of the field near where the monument now stands. And I saw hundreds and hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around. The Indians dismounted and tied their horses in a bunch and got down into the coulees, shooting at the soldiers from all sides. From the point that juts out just below where the monument stands about thirty of us got through the line, firing as we went, and captured a lot of Custer's horses and drove them down to the river."

Good mystery...did he go around Nye Ridge to Custer Hill? I don't think so...I think this is the Crazy Horse and Lame White Man charge event. I believe he was with LWM...RTE went around GGR near the river and went up Deep Ravine to form that firing line, and drove horses "down to the river" down Deep Ravine. Note the translated expression "got through the line." This describes perfectly CH's and LWM's maneuver to get through the cavalry defenses into the rear of Custer's battalion's formations.

Now it could also describe, as I think you believe, an action around Nye Ridge and towards Custer Hill, but I think it more probably describes the above. In places where I pin Native accounts to models, I have two models and this quote in both places.

Clair

[mwkeogh]

conz said:

Bill,

Good investigation on examining Runs The Enemy's critical testimony. How did he approach the battlefield? Let's look at this passage...


RTE has just listened to Sitting Bull who was on his horse encouraging a bunch of Natives coming back from the Reno fight. Many Sioux and Cheyenne have already begun "surrounding" the Keogh squadron...

"We were all hidden along the ridge of hills. While Sitting-Bull was telling this I looked up and saw that the Cheyennes had made a circle around Custer on the west, north, and east sides, and that left a gap on the south side for us to fill."

This early location was with SB, so it must be near the MTC ford...I don't think SB ever left the village area.

We are both in agreement on this position Clair. It would have to have been the hill or ridgeline just to the north of MTF.

"We then filled up the gap, and as we did so we looked over to the Cheyenne side, and there was a woman among the Cheyennes who was nearest the soldiers trying to fight them."

Don't you think the "Cheyenne" side was the Deep Ravine area? And where do you think the "gap" on the "south" side is? I'm thinking he and his 130 Two Kettles are on Greasy Grass Ridge. You can see the Cheyennes from there, but you can't see them from the east side of Battle Ridge.

Yes, I am still with you on this location Clair. I would also place him on or near Greasy Grass Ridge, or perhaps on the north slope of Deep Coulee (not Deep Ravine).

"While Custer was all surrounded, there had been no firing from either side. The Sioux then made a charge from the rear side, shooting into the men, and the shooting frightened the horses so that they rushed upon the ridge and many horses were shot. The return fire was so strong that the Sioux had to retreat back over the hill again."

I'm thinking these are Gall's boys in the Henryville area...or from Nye Ridge.

This event is difficult to place, as he gives no real indication of where on the field it took place other than after a period of inactivity on both sides (we don't really know how long this period lasted, but I would suggest that during this lull in the action, Runs the Enemy mounted his horse and rode along Nye-Cartright Ridge north, past Henryville until he reached the safety of East Ridge), he says that the Sioux (not the Cheyenne) make the 1st charge from the rear side. We are left to wonder where the rear side is located.
From his position it could mean either from the south (directed against Calhoun Hill, as you indicate), or from the east against the horseholders behind Calhoun Hill, as I theorize. I could be wrong, but I think that a mounted charge against this position was more likely to originate behind the cover of East Ridge. There really is not much area in the Henryville area to assemble a mounted force of warriors to charge Calhoun Hill. Nearly all the warriors in the Henryville area would have been dismounted and hiding in the crevaces and gullies in upper Deep Coulee. Assembling horses in this region for a charge would have been suicidal for the hostiles.

You did a great job of analyzing his last paragraph:

Good mystery...did he go around Nye Ridge to Custer Hill? I don't think so...I think this is the Crazy Horse and Lame White Man charge event. I believe he was with LWM...RTE went around GGR near the river and went up Deep Ravine to form that firing line, and drove horses "down to the river" down Deep Ravine. Note the translated expression "got through the line." This describes perfectly CH's and LWM's maneuver to get through the cavalry defenses into the rear of Custer's battalion's formations.

Now it could also describe, as I think you believe, an action around Nye Ridge and towards Custer Hill, but I think it more probably describes the above. In places where I pin Native accounts to models, I have two models and this quote in both places.
Clair

Here is my own analysis and why I think Runs the Enemy took the northern most route to LSH as opposed to the route along GGR:

"I left my men there and told them to hold that position and then I rushed around the hills and came up to the north end of the field near where the monument now stands. And I saw hundreds and hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around.

RTE does not tell us which route he took to reach LSH, but he does say that he saw hundreds of Indians in the coulees all around Custer's position. I think it noteworthy that he did not say that he was in any of the coulees, but just that he noticed hundreds of other warriors there. From where I placed RTE last, near the rear of Calhoun Hill, the easiest and safest way to reach LSH mounted was on the eastern side of East Ridge. To have reached LSH the via the southern route would have entailed him either riding thru a Deep Ravine packed with hundreds of dismounted warriors, or riding along the rivers edge or along the top of GGR until he once again reached Deep Ravine, packed with hundreds of dismounted warriors impeding his progress. Exiting this position would have placed him well below LSH and a very good distance away from it, whereas, if he traveled behind East Ridge, he would have come out right behind LSH just a short distance away.

The Indians dismounted and tied their horses in a bunch and got down into the coulees, shooting at the soldiers from all sides.

Now he appears to be describing the dismounted warriors in the coulees shooting at the soldiers on LSH and Cemetery Ridge from all sides. He does not seem to refer to himself doing this, thus I am of the opinion that he was still mounted and some distance behind LSH.

From the point that juts out just below where the monument stands about thirty of us got through the line, firing as we went, and captured a lot of Custer's horses and drove them down to the river."

Now, this is where we differ in our interpretations. I identify the point he refers to ("that juts out just below where the monument stands", as the Indian firing position behind the knoll just east of and below LSH). I know of no other feature in the area that fits this description. To me, a 'point' refers to a knoll or high hill, not a ravine or a coulee. From this point or hillock, about 30 mounted warriors charged thru the soldier position and captured E Co's horses and drove them down to the river. My theory has this mounted charge beginning about 100 yards northeast of LSH and charging over the gap between LSH and Cemetery Ridge where I have E Co's led horses being held. These horses were then driven downhill towards Deep Ravine and the river. You suggest that this charge began below in the Deep Ravine area (which I contend is not suitable for assembling a large number of mounted warriors to ride out of) then charging uphill over a rather large expanse of land until they reach the led horses of E Co., then scattering them in the opposite direction of the river, but then getting hold of them again and turning them around to then drive them back down the way they had come towards Deep Ravine and the river. The only way this could have happened, is if you place E Co. down on a skirmish line just above Deep Ravine with Custer making the same mistake as Keogh sending C Co. down to GGR. If this did occur, then we must discard all the native accounts of seeing a dismounted company of 30 or so men leave their defensive position on the hill and head towards Deep Ravine. If E Co. was destroyed on the SSL, then there would have been no retreat down from their hill to this position. And I discount the theory that E Co. 1st went to the SSL, lost their horses and was driven back dismounted to LSH, then ran back down again to Deep Ravine. No way possible that could have occurred. So that brings me back to the simplest explanation possible, which is that RTE charged the led horses of E Co. from near the top of the ridge between LSH and Cemetery Ridge and drove the horses down to the river in the same direction of their charge. This charge would have traveled in a SW direction starting from a point NE of LSH.

[shan]

Keogh,

I think there may have been at least two charges made in and around LSH, with a view to running off the greys belonging to E troop, with another one coming from the general direction of the museum, that being of course, the supposed charge of the suicide boys.

Whichever way he made his way into the area, it would seem that Runs the Enemy and those that accompanied him either came over the brow of the ridge somewhere near LSH, or else around the Northern Eastern edge, and if I remember rightly, Two Moons talks about one or maybe two charges originating from the same sort of area during which they ran off some soldier horses. He, Two Moons, also mentions that the charge took them down past a line of soldiers who fired unsuccessfully at them as they passed by; thereby giving them the added bonus of having performed a bravoury run, which if true, would place at least some of Custers force somewhere below LSH prior to eventually ending up there.

Now I know a number of you seem to think that Two Moons is a charlatan and a liar, and as a result probably refuse to take anything he says seriously. But look, even if he were; and I for one doubt that everything he said was untrue, liars often use the truth as a starting place, a spring board for a story that will in the end embellish them and their reputations, in which case he may well be relating a story that was common parlance amongst the hostiles, after all running off horses was almost a bigger feather in your cap than killing an enemy, and what better horses than the ones almost everyone had noticed at one time or another during the battle, the Greys, and then given it an extra spin by making himself the man who led it. Or, if you believe him, his may have been one of several such charges.

Either way, the incident is shown in the two big paintings Standing Bear made of the battle. This is a marvelous piece of work and full of clues for those studying the battle. Amongst the incidents that obviously stood out in his mind, are the four mounted troopers fleeing South from what looks like the Calhoun/Keogh area, then there are the men fleeing to, and actually in Deep ravine, and finally, the Greys being run off.

Without any bearings other than the river running across the bottom of the painting, it looks to me as if they are being run off in what would be a Northerly direction, in fact looking at it again, towards Ford D. Now whether this is because of constraints imposed upon him by the lack of spare space on the paper, or whether this is an accurate depiction of the direction they were driven is hard to say. But, if he had wished to show them being driven down towards Deep Ravine ford, I think he had just about space to do so.

One last thing. It has always puzzled me that those that hold to the view that Custer occupied Cemetery ridge, state that because they found themselves being exposed to fire coming from warriors occupying the LSH area, E troop was sent up on foot to clear it, thus providing the opportunity for their horses to be run off. Why? Why do the job on foot, when a brief mounted charge would have accompanied the desired effect so much quicker?

shan

[mwkeogh]

shan said:

Keogh,

I think there may have been at least two charges made in and around LSH, with a view to running off the greys belonging to E troop, with another one coming from the general direction of the museum, that being of course, the supposed charge of the suicide boys.

Shan, I don't think there needs to be two different charges made against the horseholders of E Co. It is very likely, I think, that the charge initiated by the suicide boys from the museum area was joined in by other mounted warriors such as Runs The Enemy mentioned which may have joined them just NE of LSH as they crested the ridgeline. Indian accounts do mention that this charge split into two groups, with one group driving the grays down to Deep Ravine ford, while the 2nd group circled around to assault the defenders on LSH from the west or NW.

Whichever way he made his way into the area, it would seem that Runs the Enemy and those that accompanied him either came over the brow of the ridge somewhere near LSH, or else around the Northern Eastern edge, and if I remember rightly, Two Moons talks about one or maybe two charges originating from the same sort of area during which they ran off some soldier horses.

I agree with you on this Shan. But I would interpret this charge as the same one made by the suicide boys described by Stands In Timber.

He, Two Moons, also mentions that the charge took them down past a line of soldiers who fired unsuccessfully at them as they passed by; thereby giving them the added bonus of having performed a bravoury run, which if true, would place at least some of Custers force somewhere below LSH prior to eventually ending up there.

Here I must disagree, Shan. The line of troopers that fired at the charging warriors as they passed by a bit further down I would identify as being the dismounted troopers of E Co. which I have stationed on Cemetery Ridge, where Gall indicated to Barry and others that a cavalry skirmish line once stood. This position would have protected the western approach to LSH (ie: kept the Indians from creating fire zones within range of the western side of LSH). Yate's F Co. & HQ would have occupied LSH at this time.

Now I know a number of you seem to think that Two Moons is a charlatan and a liar, and as a result probably refuse to take anything he says seriously. But look, even if he were; and I for one doubt that everything he said was untrue, liars often use the truth as a starting place, a spring board for a story that will in the end embellish them and their reputations, in which case he may well be relating a story that was common parlance amongst the hostiles, after all running off horses was almost a bigger feather in your cap than killing an enemy, and what better horses than the ones almost everyone had noticed at one time or another during the battle, the Greys, and then given it an extra spin by making himself the man who led it. Or, if you believe him, his may have been one of several such charges.

I for one do not consider Two Moon a liar. It seemed to be in the nature of many of the warriors to embellish their own roles in the battle to a degree, but I am not willing 'to throw out the baby along with the bathwater' in these cases. The only blatant case where I have concluded that an Indian account was truly suspect was the notorious account of White Cow Bull who claimed to have shot an officer who he tried to describe as being Custer down at MTF. He also embellished his tall tale with a romantic twist having himself courting the beautiful Monaseetah at the same time. But truly, it is too easy for those of us to dismiss an Indian's account if it happens to disagree with our own notions about what happened that day. Its far easier to dismiss the native accounts rather than admit the possibility that our own version may be wrong.

Either way, the incident is shown in the two big paintings Standing Bear made of the battle. This is a marvelous piece of work and full of clues for those studying the battle. Amongst the incidents that obviously stood out in his mind, are the four mounted troopers fleeing South from what looks like the Calhoun/Keogh area, then there are the men fleeing to, and actually in Deep ravine, and finally, the Greys being run off.

I will have to take a look at this painting. Is there a book or copy of it on the internet?

Without any bearings other than the river running across the bottom of the painting, it looks to me as if they are being run off in what would be a Northerly direction, in fact looking at it again, towards Ford D. Now whether this is because of constraints imposed upon him by the lack of spare space on the paper, or whether this is an accurate depiction of the direction they were driven is hard to say. But, if he had wished to show them being driven down towards Deep Ravine ford, I think he had just about space to do so.

The problem with this interpretation is that other Indian accounts, notably Runs The Enemy, very definitively identifies Deep Ravine as the place where the Gray Horses were run off to. Thus I would suspect that your earlier explanation was right or the painting may have described a different scene of horses being captured during the battle---and there is a line of thought among certain researchers that believe that F Co. may have had a number of their mounts captured while demonstrating at the north ford (Ford D1), so its possible he was describing this event.

One last thing. It has always puzzled me that those that hold to the view that Custer occupied Cemetery ridge, state that because they found themselves being exposed to fire coming from warriors occupying the LSH area, E troop was sent up on foot to clear it, thus providing the opportunity for their horses to be run off. Why? Why do the job on foot, when a brief mounted charge would have accompanied the desired effect so much quicker?
shan

My own view is that both E & F Companies successfully drove off the warriors from LSH much earlier in the fight. E Co. may well have driven the warriors off the hill with a mounted charge, while a dismounted F Co. covered their backside while approaching the hill dismounted from Cemetery Ridge with the Co. F horses kept below Cemetery Ridge in the flats. There are Indian accounts which identify the Gray Horse troop mounted attempting to support Keogh's retreat to LSH and providing cover fire against warriors who were pursuing the survivors of Keogh's battalion. My model would then have F Co. arriving on LSH with most of their mounts on the west slope of the hill, while E Co. was later sent down mounted to the Cemetery Ridge position along with the few survivors of Keogh's battalion minus the C Co. troopers who were kept on LSH. Once Cemetery Ridge position was occupied, the Gray Horse troop would then have dismounted to take up skirmish positions on the Ridge covering the approach to LSH, while the horses would be led into the gulch between Cemetery Ridge and LSH. It would be at this time that the Indians launched their charge down and over the ridge to drive off the Gray Horses of E Co. down into Deep Ravine while a separate party broke off and assaulted LSH from the west which was then subsequently hit by a mounted charge led by Wolf Tooth's band from the east. During this melee, E Co. made their last dash down to Deep Ravine following in the wake of their horses.

[shan]

Keogh,

The painting can be found in a wonderful book called' Visions of the people," by Even M. Maurer. I not sure if you would find it on e-bay, maybe a library might be a better bet.

He made two big paintings, { unusual in itself,} of what is a very general view of the battle and some of the events leading up to it, the one mentioned above, and another one which is reproduced very badly in, ' For all to see," by Sandra Brizee-- Bowen.
Interestingly, they differ only very slightly, but in the second he places one dead trooper well away from the all the others, very close to the river somewhere around Medicine Tail Ford. He also places a rough circle of dead troopers and a couple of dead horse just below the long line of soldiers standing along what I take to be battle ridge, around the kind of spot one would locate Calhoun and Finley. Lastly, the Greys are being driven off again in a more Northerly direction than we would have thought from the Oral information we have avalible, but as I said before, it is hard to tell whether this is because of restrictions of avalible space, or if he is depicting what he actually saw. Whicheverway, he gives this incident a good third of the picture space that deals with the battle, an indication of how big an impression it made upon him.

By the way, he is very specific about the colour of the horses, they are grey and not some other colour. Indians tended to be very pedantic when it came to this type of art, which is why these type of drawings can be so useful to any one wishing to study the battle.

Shan

[conz]

Shan,

Great comments by both you and Bill. The most entertaining aspect to LBH, I think, is trying to fit Native witness accounts together.

shan said:

One last thing. It has always puzzled me that those that hold to the view that Custer occupied Cemetery ridge, state that because they found themselves being exposed to fire coming from warriors occupying the LSH area, E troop was sent up on foot to clear it, thus providing the opportunity for their horses to be run off. Why? Why do the job on foot, when a brief mounted charge would have accompanied the desired effect so much quicker?

shan

In theory, there are at least four common reasons a cavalryman might order a dismounted charge rather than a mounted one:

1) Firepower is more important to him than shock action in this situation, so you make an "advance by fire" technique.

2) There isn't time (or security) to pull down your firing line, go back and mount up, and reform to charge. So you just do it with the dismounted line you are already in.

3) It is too chaotic to mount up...mounted Soldiers tend to scatter much more easily than dismounted ones. If things are too hectic and close to out of control, you stay dismounted.

4) There is too much enemy firepower around. Mounted formations are very vulnerable to heavy fire...so you go in dismounted. Very common in the Civil War by our cavalry there when attacking prepared enemy firing lines.

Clair

[conz]

NOTE: The proper sequence of events for this proposed model is:
- Buildup
- Crisis
- Consequence
- End

Not sure we can change it now...sorry for the confusion!

Clair

This slide portrays what I visualize as the "slow build up" period...maybe 30 minutes worth of time once Yates cleared LSH going north.

[conz]

This is actually the third slide in order, and it visualizes what I think happened as a result of C Co's charge to GGR, and its dissolving and rout north. This is the "buffalo hunt" episode of the Custer fight. One group I think got cut off on Finley hill and made the "first last stand."

Yellow markers indicate hand-to-hand combat. It also shows where most of the Indian casualties probably occurred. Note that I have Crazy Horse coming over the ridge before I Co can deploy against the unexpected threat, because the ridge blocked them from seeing what was coming. I have Keogh running back to I Co and getting there about the same time Crazy Horse does. The impact of the forces results in probably half the Warriors riding through, regrouping about a hundred yards past the I Co group, and turning around and charging back through again...back and forth. Each pass, many Warriors are dismounted and engage in hand-to-hand combats with Troopers.

L Co's fire slackens as it faces threats from new directions, and the Warriors that were pinned down by them begin to move forward.

[conz]

This slide visualizes what I think happened to Keogh's otherwise excellent defense. For whatever reason, I think he ordered C Co to charge down to the GG Ridge and occupy it. I think they dismounted when they got there, and sat on it for about two minutes! The Natives who abandoned it quickly regroups and surged forward from all sides, there not being adequate all around fire zones to protect the Troopers' position.

[conz]

This slide visualizes how I think Keogh & Co died, and the timing of Custer's return and reaction to events. I believe that E Co, after being unable to stop the masses of warriors from reaching Calhoun Hill by dismounted fire, was ordered by Custer to attack into the flank of the Warriors attack on Keogh to save him. But the attack was simply too small, and did not intimidate the masses of Warriors here, and they ended up in the deep ravine "gorge" they were found in.

[bc]

Conz, I'm impressed!!!!!!

[crzhrs]

Excellent--almost makes you feel like you're there!