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Post by conz on Jul 6, 2009 9:50:18 GMT -6
Thanks Steve...so Mangas was taunted and killed by volunteers, not Regular U.S. Army Soldiers or officers?
Clair
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Post by conz on Jul 6, 2009 9:53:22 GMT -6
conz you're the best for keeping threads going  and your firm belief that the army lived up to it's standards. my books are loaded with samples of torture, scalping and massacres, you need glasses or skip everything that does not confirm your selective reading Show me an example of the Regular Army doing this, then. It may have happened somewhere...human nature would say that it is certainly possible. But Regular Army discipline and morality make it improbable, and very rare. Of course, being captured by the savages is a very different story, eh? Is this a Regular Army officer? I've never heard of him. Probably a volunteer militiaman, like most of our Civil War Soldiers and officers. Clair |
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Post by conz on Jul 6, 2009 10:04:31 GMT -6
yes those shoshone babies you tried earlier to link to sitting bull"s deeds if we had not intervened.. another coup you were blind to. It was Sitting Bull's followers that killed all those Shoshone babies. Some of these Cheyenne families went with SB to Canada, I'm sure. This hostile tribe was certainly one of the ones that followed SB around. That's pretty cold...under the white man's civilization, NO Indians are being killed in "tribal warfare." A few crimes here and there based on inter-tribal racism, but nothing like the violence and bloodshed that typified the old Indian way of life. I think the Indians are better off, and I'm betting than most Native Americans today think so, too, if they are being honest. Living a life of unending intertribal war is no way to raise your families, or advance your civilization. The sooner we get rid of this paradigm, the better, and the Europeans were several thousand years ahead of the Indians in closing in on that ideal. The Pawnee were a civilized tribe...they deserved to win. You may be mistaken in this. I don't think anyone has the figures, but my impression of reading the histories is that more Shoshone probably were killed by Sioux and Cheyenne than by all the whites they ever fought. I wouldn't be surprised to find that more Cheyenne were killed by Pawnee, either, than by whites, although this is more problematic...the Americans killed a lot of Cheyenne, northern and southern. But so did the Pawnee. Most of the people out West, Indian and American, wanted the Northern Cheyenne and Lakotas tribes GONE, one way or another. They had had enough of their violent ways. Clair |
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Post by conz on Jul 6, 2009 10:09:26 GMT -6
I find that offensive and I would love to introduce you to Larry Spencer of the Navajo Nation and you can tell him of his useless life. We served in the Marines and in Viet Nam and both became wildlife officers. Larry was a Navajo Ranger and has retired. Or lets met another Navajo in Page Arizona that served as an Arizona Highway Patrol Officer, Coconino County Justice of the Peace, and current owner of Anderson Feeds located on the "REZ". I was in a western shop in downtown Flagstaff, Gene's Western Wear. There were a bunch of French tourist there. They asked one of the Navajo employees if he knew of Custer. He said yes he is in the back referring to Gary the white guy. We all had a good laugh. True Story. AZ Ranger Thanks for that reminder, Steve, on this 4th of July weekend. My great thanks and appreciation go out to all our Soldiers that have kept America free, especially those Native American Soldiers who have continued their proud Warrior tradition in the U.S. Armed Forces, still striving to do what they have done for eternity...keeping ourfamilies safe. Clair PS...miss Tricia. She was a spunky gal. |
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Post by wolfgang911 on Jul 6, 2009 16:20:28 GMT -6
Over 400 shoshones got killed raped tortured by Connor and his fine california = US army. Off course you have to look up in your books now and find out it was not yet your real westpoint army to excuse like at sand creek, as all excuses are good for whites, none for NDN. Try to find these figures in lakota - snake warfare. You're out again. Not in a hundred years. Your hatred is obvious stating that "everyone wanted the cheyennes and the sioux to go with their violent ways". Yes the greedy miners, a couple of ranchers and some military men who needed a goal in life before america went international. Sioux Cheyenne Kiowa Arapaho Comanche Arapaho Kiowa-Apache all wanted to stay. They were all at peace amongst each other since 1840. You make a big thing out of a little tribal warfare to shed your mean light on the lakota nation. Once again tribal warfare was mainly a sport for all tribes involved and concerned mostly raids vice versa with the crow, the pawnees and some other sedentary tribes. Horse stealing, raiding, counting coups with a relatively small death toll every year was as common to this culture and applauded as guitar solos by heavy metal bands. No big deal. It was part of it and otherwise their communities without wealth but with status would not held, they were no hippies so to say. More people died through by whites introduced alcohol related fights, on the rez and before, as through tribal warfare. Every year there are more people murdered in LA by tribal gangs then in 1 century wintercount of the lakota yet you don't send all the LA residents dying wih the flies somewhere to Oklahoma. Allthough I like debate and spend time with people that disagree exchanging views and opinions in order to keep the knives sharp, hoping to learn something from others and also convincing somebody now and then of my own immodest original point of views I must admit that even Wolfgang is tired of your countering. You're blind to every argument. You mingle all ratt's tails making threads unreadible by writing between every line as you wish to OK every line that is written or better diagree on everything giving your backward robotic army vision. For exemple in your last post you restart the saying that it was SB followers again admitting the same time they were cheyenne. Total ignorance of NDN plain culture again (there were no "followers") and only looking as always for some sordid detail to justify all means against them or to spit on the image of their great men. You might have noticed that i normally used a lot of  as I like debate with some humour. Your narcistic beating up of ndn's on the web gives me the creeps, I did not imagine that such revisionists existed except for some backward ranch. Maybe Hunk can join in with his more intellectual countering of your non sense otherwise I fear CRZHRS will be on his own pretty soon.  For the moment I withdraw to other hunting grounds. Like all the other wiser retreated elsewhere before so much untimely 19th century stubbornness. It will be boring a LBH board with only 7the cavalry fans. ;D |
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Post by wolfgang911 on Jul 6, 2009 16:43:36 GMT -6
Conz > "Living a life of unending intertribal war is no way to raise your families, or advance your civilization. The sooner we get rid of this paradigm, the better, and the Europeans were several thousand years ahead of the Indians in closing in on that ideal. "  WELL WELL THE NDN RAISED THEIR FAMILIES PRETTY WELL AND WERE THE GREATEST NATION OF EQUASTRIAN NOMADS DOING FINE BEFORE ALIENS LIKE YOU POPPED OUT WITH THEIR WEIRD IDEA OF PROGRESS (in fact they were the only ones sure to be living from the buffalo in several 1000 years indeed : where you will be in 10 years is quite unsure. Your economy is wasted, your credit account in the trillions and ressources are running out. Good luck with your progress and fine civilisation!) SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS AHEAD? YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN EUROPE IN THE 19 TH CENTURY AND 20 TH CENTURY. ALL THOSE PRUSSIAN, FRENCH, POLISH , AGLOSAXON TRIBES SMASHING THEIR HEADS, RAPING, TORTURING, KILLING DURING THEIR MASSIVE INTERTRIBAL-STATE WARS BY THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS AND MILLIONS EVERY 50 YEARS Conz > "The Pawnee were a civilized tribe...they deserved to win." CIVILISED? IS THERE A CHAMPIONSHIP? DESERVED TO WIN WHAT? I thought you always said it was the loser who deserved to lose period. Conz> "I wouldn't be surprised to find that more Cheyenne were killed by Pawnee, either, than by whites, although this is more problematic...the Americans killed a lot of Cheyenne, northern and southern. But so did the Pawnee". VERY CIVILISED YOUR PAWNEE VERY UNVIOLENT YOUR AMERICANS Conz> " Most of the people out West, Indian and American, wanted the Northern Cheyenne and Lakotas tribes GONE, one way or another. They had had enough of their violent ways." Well I have enough of your violent statements.  |
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Post by conz on Jul 6, 2009 18:57:00 GMT -6
Sorry WG...kinda like the cavalry hounding the Indians out of their hunting grounds. They couldn't get any peace, always wondering when the next attack will come, and so they finally surrendered or fled to Canada.
Enlightening parallel.
I don't mean to berate or demean you. I really am giving logical arguments. I am a compassionate person...I just can't justify allowing Indian culture to continue on in the way that it was...my personal opinion. Take its claws away, and it is a wonderful culture, and a wonderful people. Allowed to war with each other and us...well, not so beautiful.
So I can look at the bad as well as the good, and I trust that you can, too.
Clair
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 6, 2009 19:24:19 GMT -6
here's another torture of the same sample by your fine army.
Major Downing struck cheyennes at Cedar Canyon another sleepy village attack in 1864 and killed about 30 same number wounded, (another for your body count !
Major Downing of the first Colorado cavalry?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 7, 2009 6:39:50 GMT -6
Wolfie - The Indians did not become equestrian until the European man brought the horse. Once the horse was on this continent the buffalo was doomed. It allowed the man predator the ability to pursue the buffalo wherever it went. Its habitat now lacked hiding cover.
Some of the reasons Conz wants to separate Regular Army from volunteers also fits my theory of human reaction. The Regular Army would be a career for the officers and NCOs and would have more discipline. The volunteer state troops fill with angry civilians after an event especially if they are going to react immediately. Now you have non disciplined troops filled with anger and things will happen.
You don't need to worry about where we will be in 10 years. We can take care of ourselves.
AZ Ranger
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 7, 2009 8:19:38 GMT -6
Not all soldiers were ethical and/or morally superior . . . read "Forty Miles A Day on Beans & Rice"
One example was soldiers looting Indian burial sites or setting fire to Indian scaffolds with officers not doing anything about it.
There are a number of other instances where US soldiers committed sacrilege to dead Indians or Indian burial sites also.
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Post by conz on Jul 7, 2009 9:16:06 GMT -6
Yes, it happened once in a while, but it was not "policy," nor condoned by most.
Now looting a burial site was not considered some great sacrilege by most officers...some thought so. Some even sought to preserve the artifacts in an American heritage museum or university collection.
So yes, there was not much of an "honor code" where dead bodies have things about them...that may be more of an Indian code than a white one.
Clair
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Post by stevewilk on Jul 7, 2009 9:51:15 GMT -6
One of the reasons Indians dug up bodies was to take their clothes. Cloth and clothing were valuable items to Indians on the frontier especially when the bison began disappearing. As for soldiers desecrating Indian "graves"; a Sioux warrior, at least was "buried" either in a tree, on a scaffold, or left in his tepee (like Old She Bear at Lone Tepee). Just like Indians knew the wasicus buried their dead in clothes, soldiers knew Indian dead contained beautifully beaded mocassins, knife sheaths, bow and quivers, etc. with no digging required. Convenient for souvenir hunters.
BTW it's Beans and Hay, not Beans and Rice. It's not a book about the Mexican army.
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 7, 2009 10:50:49 GMT -6
I'd rather have the rice . . . way too much fiber in hay!
Mexican Army? That's funny!
I guess grave robbing knows no color, religion, race . . . I'd be quite upset if someone dug me up (of course, I'll be cremated, that'll fix 'em)
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Post by conz on Jul 7, 2009 18:24:24 GMT -6
So now this thread has really taken a turn into the gutter, er, grave. <g>
I guess we don't need a thread called "A Whole Bunch of Dead Cavalrymen," since that is the reason d'entre of the entire forum.
I'm for cremation, too...fitting end for a Warrior, I should think. At least in the Celtic tradition, which is my tribal heritage.
Clair
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Post by wolfgang911 on Jul 11, 2009 16:37:26 GMT -6
here's another torture of the same sample by your fine army.
Major Downing struck cheyennes at Cedar Canyon another sleepy village attack in 1864 and killed about 30 same number wounded, (another for your body count ! Major Downing of the first Colorado cavalry? yes, so what? it does not count again? l |
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and your firm belief that the army lived up to it's standards.
): 
as I like debate with some humour. Your narcistic beating up of ndn's on the web gives me the creeps, I did not imagine that such revisionists existed except for some backward ranch.
