A Whole Bunch of Dead Indians! Wow!

[Ryan]

Conz,

"Back to thread topic, I will bet you that Indians killed a whole bunch more other Indians than they ever killed white men, and that more Indians were killed by other Indians in their entire history, than were ever killed by immigrants to America.

Care to challenge that bet?

Indians killed more buffalo than white men did on the Plains, and Indians killed more Indians than white men did on the Plains, too..."

Now I know that excerpt from your previous post refers to the Plains and (I think) concerns combat on the Plains (granted, I'm jumping in on this thread for a quick comment), but when you consider immigrant pathogens (small pox, cholera) that spread throughout the Americas (including the area in question) and to which the Indians were particularly susceptible w/out natural immunity, I'd have to question the statement that Indians were responsible for more Indian deaths than whites , when you look at the picture outside of combat....and certainly just as combat was a product of European immigration, so too was the spread of deadly disease which claimed more lives than combat did over 300 years (millions of lives).

In terms of perceived land ownership, I do not look at it so much as who got there first or who was already there, per se. The expansion of whites into Indian lands, going back to the days of the conquistadores, inevitably brought extinction to the Indian way of life. In the case of the Mayans and Aztecs and South American societies, this destruction of culture extended well beyond military conquest but also contributed to the demise of thriving cultures; great cities were abandoned, alien pathogens ravaged populations, even language was subjugated to spanish/portuguese. Natives were given Spanish/Portuguese names. Conversion to Catholicism was mandatory.

In regards to the Plains, the Indian Reservations were certainly destructive of the Indian culture; plots of land for farming completely negated the nomadic tradition of Sioux and Cheyenne; buffalo became extinct from arbitrary slaughter by whites; English language and names absorbed Indian youth and with it, longstanding culture.

Sure, other Indian tribes were used as instruments to defeat warring tribes, but, it was White/European culture that did more than kill physical Indian lives; it killed the nomadic culture that defined the plains, and in that sense it is more sensible to see the Whites as the invaders.

[AZ Ranger]

I think Conz question was regarding Indians killing more of white or Indians. Disease brought by whites doesn't fit either choice. I would guess Indians killed more Indians then they hilled whites.

When talking about plains Indians are we talking about the horse culture brought about by the Spanish? The Anasazi were gone before small pox I believe in the southwest.

AZ Ranger

[conz]

Comanch,

Now I know that excerpt from your previous post refers to the Plains and (I think) concerns combat on the Plains (granted, I'm jumping in on this thread for a quick comment), but when you consider immigrant pathogens (small pox, cholera) that spread throughout the Americas (including the area in question) and to which the Indians were particularly susceptible w/out natural immunity, I'd have to question the statement that Indians were responsible for more Indian deaths than whites , when you look at the picture outside of combat....and certainly just as combat was a product of European immigration, so too was the spread of deadly disease which claimed more lives than combat did over 300 years (millions of lives).

Yes, I agree with you...I believe that disease killed more Indians than any combat did; it killed more whites than any combat did too, actually.

I wouldn't doubt, though, that disease killed more Indians before the Europeans ever got to America than the Indians killed each other in combat. Medicine was simply not capable of stopping epidemics of even the indigenous American viruses and bacteria, much less the European ones when they got here.

Even in the great bloodletting of the American Civil War...horrendous combat on a scale Indians never even imagined, disease killed more northern and southern whites than combat did.

So very good point!

In terms of perceived land ownership, I do not look at it so much as who got there first or who was already there, per se. The expansion of whites into Indian lands, going back to the days of the conquistadores, inevitably brought extinction to the Indian way of life. In the case of the Mayans and Aztecs and South American societies, this destruction of culture extended well beyond military conquest but also contributed to the demise of thriving cultures; great cities were abandoned, alien pathogens ravaged populations, even language was subjugated to spanish/portuguese. Natives were given Spanish/Portuguese names. Conversion to Catholicism was mandatory.

So true, but weren't the Mayans mostly extinct even before the Spanish came to America? Something destroyed their cities before the whites ever came...we still wonder what. So it happened without European interference as well...nothing new there to the natives.

The Spanish, too, were a product of multiple conquests and genocide of European/Arabian cultures. The criss-cross of civilizations across Spain is what makes that country such a lively and eclectic place. But it was very cruel, as well...just as cruel as anything the Indians experienced.

In regards to the Plains, the Indian Reservations were certainly destructive of the Indian culture; plots of land for farming completely negated the nomadic tradition of Sioux and Cheyenne; buffalo became extinct from arbitrary slaughter by whites; English language and names absorbed Indian youth and with it, longstanding culture.

Of course...that was exactly the point. Indian civilization could not coexist with European or American culture...it was far too violent. European culture is violent enough...two such aggressive peoples next to each other could never survive...one must be subjugated. We, today, are very lucky it was the European one that conquered, and the Indian one that was subjugated.

Just as we are very lucky that most of the world isn't forced to speak Germany today, due to world wide events only 70 years ago. Civilizations do that...if you can't defend yourselves, you can't survive. It is the survival of the fittest, and the advancement of mankind, overall.

Now could it be done with more compassion and mercy? I'm sure...the Europeans are no more a perfect people than any of the others...just more advanced in human capabilities (organization, ambition, and technology).

Sure, other Indian tribes were used as instruments to defeat warring tribes, but, it was White/European culture that did more than kill physical Indian lives; it killed the nomadic culture that defined the plains, and in that sense it is more sensible to see the Whites as the invaders.

Yes, very much so. And even as the Indian allies of the Americans were doing their part to subdue their more hostile cousins, they knew their own societies had to change...they saw the inevitability of it, and joined the winning side in order to survive, themselves.

And it is due to THEIR service to the Americans that they still DO have their own language, and their own lands, small as they are, and an identifiable culture and family lines. Most conquered peoples in human history never enjoyed that privilege...they are lost to the dustbins of human history.

I'm NOT saying that we did them any favors. I am saying, though, that if your people are going to be conquered and subjugated, it is better done by the Americans, than by any other of the world's peoples.

Does that make the sin less in a relative way? Maybe, but we always expect better of ourselves, eh? That's why we criticize, and your comments are all valid, and to be learned.

As the western world "civilizes" the populations of failed nations in Southwest and Southeast Asia, Africa, and South America, we'll have more chances to do better, I hope.

Thanks,
Clair

[crzhrs]

The Indians did not believe in an individual owning land, but the tribe yes.

[crzhrs]

<Indians killed more buffalo than white men did on the Plains>

Between 1870-1880 30 million buffalo were killed by White Hunters.

It wasn't until Indians acquired horses that they had the ability to kill buffalo in large numbers and even then it wasn't until they acquired fire arms that they could kill even larger numbers of buffalo and I doubt it approached anywhere close to what Whites did.

[crzhrs]

<Indians killed more Indians than white men did on the Plains, too...">

Indian warfare was completely different than the Whites. It was mostly small scale with the major accomplishments being stealing horses and/or counting coup on a live enemy.

There may have been some major battles with larger numbers killed but like most Indian fights small numbers were killed, not anywhere close to the casualties inflicted by the military on villagers where 100 or more could have been killed (Washita stands out)

[crzhrs]

<Medicine was simply not capable of stopping epidemics of even the indigenous American viruses and bacteria, much less the European ones when they got here>

There is no known "American" viruses/bacteria that killed Indians in the numbers that European diseases did.

America was relatively pure and free from the type of deadly diseases that killed thousands of people in the crowded, filthy cities of Europe.

[crzhrs]

d<We, today, are very lucky it was the European one that conquered, and the Indian one that was subjugated. Just as we are very lucky that most of the world isn't forced to speak Germany today>

So now you are lumping the Indians in with Nazis?

The American Indian was never "our" enemy. They never wanted to enforce their ways on us, never was a serious threat to our economy or overthrowing the government.

When a culture is destroyed we are just as much the losers as the ones who are destroyed.

[crzhrs]

<As the western world "civilizes" the populations of failed nations in Southwest and Southeast Asia, Africa, and South America, we'll have more chances to do better, I hope>

Read world history and you will see that many of the people of Asia attained highly "civilized" cultures with fantastic architecture, arts, crafts, and were far more advanced at the time than most of Europe.

China comes to mind, Thailand, India, and many others.

And there were numerous advanced cultures in South America & Africa that attained levels of advancement that made the disease-ridden cities of Europe look pathetic.

[crzhrs]

<So true, but weren't the Mayans mostly extinct even before the Spanish came to America?>

The Mayans never went extinct. Thousands of them still live in Central America.

Even after the collapse of the centralized government, Mayan cities still thrived but slowly were abandoned due to ecological and non-ecological means.

Some say the land's carrying capacity could not keep up with Indian numbers. Also since the government lost it's centralized power it made it easier for Mayan enemies and even in-fighting among Mayans to cause the culture's final collapse.

The Spaniards nothing to do with it . . . it's bad enough they were the violent & viscious catalyst for the destruction of the Incas & Aztecs.

[markland]

Jun 22, 2009 9:24:23 GMT -6 crzhrs said:

<Indians killed more buffalo than white men did on the Plains>

Between 1870-1880 30 million buffalo were killed by White Hunters.

It wasn't until Indians acquired horses that they had the ability to kill buffalo in large numbers and even then it wasn't until they acquired fire arms that they could kill even larger numbers of buffalo and I doubt it approached anywhere close to what Whites did.

You may want to rephrase your statement re: "it wasn't until Indians acquired horses that they had the ability to kill buffalo in large numbers..."

Please do a Google or Bing search on the words, "Buffalo Jump" and let me know what you find.

Billy

[conz]

Out of Hyde's famous Red Cloud's Folk: A History of the Oglala Sioux Indians:

"At the time of Lewis and Clark's coming among them, the Oglalas and their Teton kindred were engaged in a new war against the Crows. Sometime around the year 1785 the Oglalas had driven the Crows out of the lands lying north of the Black Hills and had forced them to retire west of Powder River...

"...about the year 1801, according to the winter-counts, a war-party of Tetons which had ventured into the Crow country was attacked by that tribe near the mouth of Powder River, losing thirty warriors. The Tetons now sent around a war-pipe, assembling a great force of Oglalas, Brules, Miniconjous, and Cheyennes; they then moved into the Crow country, where they surprised and captured a Crow camp. Some years after this, about 1820, the Crows killed every man in a war-party of Cheyenne Bow String warriors in a fight on Tongue River, and on learning this the Cheyennes sent around a pipe and induced the Oglalas and some other Teton tribes to come to their aid..."

"During these early wars any disaster, such as the destruction of a war-party or the killing of a prominent man, was sure to lead to a great gathering of the camps and a movement in force against the enemy..."

"...These operations were generally very successful, resulting in the capture of entire camps; many of the enemy were killed, large numbers of women and children were taken alive, and herds of horses and other property fell into the hands of the victors. After the Crow village was captured in 1820 the Oglala and Cheyenne camps were full of Crow women and children, most of whom were adopted."

"...Immediately after this ceremony they got up a war-party of several hundred men and advanced into the enemy's country where they struck a heavy blow."

Doesn't sound very playful, to me.

Clair

[zekesgirl]

<<<<<You may want to rephrase your statement re: "it wasn't until Indians acquired horses that they had the ability to kill buffalo in large numbers..."

Please do a Google or Bing search on the words, "Buffalo Jump" and let me know what you find.>>>>> Thousands killed, many more injured and there is no way all the carcasses were used to their fullest extent.

[crzhrs]

Buffalo Jumps:

The remains found there were the remains of buffalo over THOUSANDS OF YEARS rather than a one-time event.

Granted, many buffalo may have fallen to their death at one time.

Overall . . . the Plains Indians (which covers the plains from Southern Canada to Southern US) were never able to kill large numbers of buffalo until they acquired horses and guns . . . and even then it certainly didn't compare to the 30 MILLION killed between 1870-1880 by White Market Hunters.

Let's not muddy the waters . . . it was White Market Hunters who were responsible for the near-extinction of the buffalo . . . not Indians.

[crzhrs]

<Doesn't sound very playful, to me>

You didn't read " . . .There may have been some major battles with larger numbers killed . . ."

Cherry picking is not the best way to counter my posts.