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Post by elisabeth on Jan 7, 2008 11:01:08 GMT -6
Would the March to the Sea count?
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 7, 2008 13:25:29 GMT -6
Hi Diane, I have a project for you if you are willing. Could you put together an Excel worksheet for a timeline? bc, sorry for the delay in answering. I just noticed your request for the Excel timeline. We have essentially started such a project on the Wiki and ask that you try to use that first. The Wiki is based on Gray's timeline, which certainly has its detractors, but it's a start. If you disagree with a certain time posted, you can put what you think happened in a different color of ink. You'll see that others have added to it by using different font styles. www.seedwiki.com/wiki/lbha/timeline?wikiPageId=576395If the Wiki doesn't serve your needs, I'll try to come up with a collaborative spreadsheet or some other tool to suit the situation.
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Post by historybuff on Jun 26, 2009 22:23:00 GMT -6
Sorry if I offended anyone or violated the rules of the forum. Seems to me, everything that happened, for what ever reason, is linked by timing, perception, and mind-set. I'll try to confine and limit further posts.
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Post by conz on Jun 29, 2009 18:58:19 GMT -6
Sorry if I offended anyone or violated the rules of the forum. Seems to me, everything that happened, for what ever reason, is linked by timing, perception, and mind-set. I'll try to confine and limit further posts. Where did this come from?! Geez...I'm gone a few days...I'll have to go through all the threads. If you read this history, PM me. Clair
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Post by benteen on Mar 28, 2010 12:08:16 GMT -6
Anyone that does not belive that Custer was a brave and courageous soldier shouldnt be in this conversation. However no book I have read about Custer (many) do they state that he was a tactical genious. Custer charged, and he did it as well as anyone.At the LBG after a poor battle plan to begin with,when faced with a situation which called for tactics in setting up a defense, I believe Custer was clueless.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Mar 28, 2010 18:31:18 GMT -6
I disagree with you. At the time of the battle, a consistent, uniform, set of rules for Indian engagement did not exist. Prior to the Rosebud battle, there is no recording of a group of Plains Indians overcoming a concentrated array of American soldiers. Custer was not made aware of the Rosebud battle before his engagement. Custer, Terry, Sheridan and, Sherman were convinced that each segment of the three prong military attack was capable of defeating any amount of warriors. Only after defeat did many exclaim that it was Custer's fault. Isn't it a shame that death prevented him from defending his case?
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Post by bc on Mar 28, 2010 21:08:19 GMT -6
Welcome Benteen. Thanks for including me in on the conversation. What Reddirt said.
bc
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Post by benteen on Mar 29, 2010 11:16:44 GMT -6
Reddirt, that there was no uniform consistent set of rules for Indian engagement is true, but it is true for any engagement from the revolution to Desert storm and all wars in between.Battles by their very nature ebb and flow and combat leaders must adopt and adjust to the situations as they arise. That Sherman and Sheridan thought any wing alone could defeat the Indians was an assumption, they had no idea about the size and strength of the Indians.They set up a strategy such as three columns converging on a certain point and hopefully trapping the enemy. It is up to the commanders in the field to execute the tactics to fullfill the mission. Sherman and Sheridan had put their faith in the tactical abilities of Terry, Gibbons, and Crook (why he wasnt court martialed is a mystery) not Custer. Custer was a part of Terrys column. Redirt ,BC I realize if there are 100 members 99 will disagree with me but I sincerly feel based on what I have learned through studying this battle that Custer and Custer alone was responsible for this defeat (or victory depending on your point of view)
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Post by wolfgang911 on Mar 29, 2010 16:35:10 GMT -6
Custer alone was responsible for this defeat (or victory depending on your point of view) well victory be it!
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Post by wolfgang911 on Mar 29, 2010 16:37:38 GMT -6
Prior to the Rosebud battle, there is no recording of a group of Plains Indians overcoming a concentrated array of American soldiers. eh sorry can you be more specific
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Post by wolfgang911 on Mar 29, 2010 16:38:38 GMT -6
and Crook (why he wasnt court martialed is a mystery) especially as he did it to his officers himself on the powder ;D
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Post by benteen on Apr 2, 2010 9:55:25 GMT -6
Redirt as far as no recorded history of Indians overcoming cavalry troops I think Capt Fettermen would have something to say about it. Also GA Custer himself after an initial charge into Black Kettles villiage on the Waschita where he inflicted many casualties among the women and children was overcome,driven back,defeated, or any other term you may use, by the warriors who had come from upstream to engage him.In fact Custer left in such a hurry he left behind Major Elliot and 13 troopers who were slaughtered.Custer knew right then that in his only real fight with Indians prior to the LBH that Indians didnt always retreat or scatter in fact when they had sufficient numbers they would attack you Please excuse my horrible spelling.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Apr 2, 2010 16:37:15 GMT -6
In both examples you gave, the Indians did not meet "concentrated" forces of soldiers. Fetterman foolishly led his men into a very well trap that was sprung before they could organize. At the Washita, Custer left before the Indians from the other villages could take effective action due to the hostages he captured.
Indians preferred overwhelming forces against a much weaker enemy using lightening strikes. they could not afford to loose large numbers of warriors as they had no standing army to draw from.
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Post by benteen on Apr 8, 2010 15:11:20 GMT -6
Redirt as to Fetterman you are correct,but Custer attacked with an entire Regiment of US Cavalry is that not a concentrated force ? Custer did not leave anywhere he was driven out.As to Indians preferring overwhelming force , do you know of any combat troops that dont? Redirt we know this debate will wind up at the LBG the only point I want to drive home is that in his only real battle with Indians Custer saw that when they had sufficient numbers not neccesarily overwhelming, Indians did not scatter and run, they actually would attack you. He knew this as he approached the Valley of the Little Big Horn.
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Apr 10, 2010 17:22:15 GMT -6
benteen, respectfully, I believe the problem with the scenario you suggest is that 250 men or so does not a "concentration" force make. Benteen, who made a survey of the battlefield shortly after the battle believed that the fight was a "rout." He believed that orders were given but few were carried out.
An example of concentrated force, in my mind, is the way Godfrey directed his company to fire in skirmish at the warriors who were in hot pursuit of Edgerly and French from Weir's Point. He not only drove them back he enabled a military withdrawal of his men and saved the day. He used a tactic that Reno could have used as well.
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