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Post by conz on Jun 25, 2009 19:27:38 GMT -6
Welcome...most of us could fervently argue for either side of this debate. <g>
Care to introduce yourself in the intro sections? You moniker is a good start...you are certainly among friends here...
Clair
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Post by historybuff on Jun 26, 2009 5:57:10 GMT -6
Thanks Clair. Really impressed with the level and tone of discussion here. I've been fascinated with the LBH battle and the Alamo since I was little. Now I'm a fossil, and still don't have any answers. That's part of the fun! You're certainly right that there are good arguments for any point of view on virtually any subject related to the battle. I've got no agenda, and I like to think I'm open-minded. Just discovered this site yesterday when I had a little free time (I'm sure I'll have to pay for it later), and was just knocked out. Seems like I've had some discussions on other Custer boards with a few of the members/guests before, so I feel right at home. I'll try to be succinct and concise in my postings. Thanks for the welcome.
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Post by conz on Jun 29, 2009 18:53:25 GMT -6
When you are ready to dive into a discussion on the topic du jour that appeals to you, pick the most appropriate thread, and we'll be glad to join in!
Clair
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Ryan
New Member
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Post by Ryan on Aug 29, 2009 18:01:48 GMT -6
When I visited the battlefield this past June, I was speaking with one of the park rangers (Jerry..Don't remember the gentleman's last name) about the northern fords. Jerry related that there was "artifactual evidence" to suggest Custer's command, or elements of Custer's command, actually crossed the river at Ford D. He did not seem to want to divulge the details concerning the nature of the evidence, but it is still intriguing. Could be something minuscule like bullets/cases, which in and of itself would not prove a lot, but the implications are thought provoking!
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Post by Melani on Aug 29, 2009 19:47:41 GMT -6
Jerry Jasmer. For some reason, the NPS has been very close-mouthed and sensitive about Ford D. They definitely don't want anybody going near there. It may just be so over-eager battle buffs don't mess up any archaeological searches that may be going on, and perhaps somebody has a book in the works, so they don't want to give away the punch line.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Aug 29, 2009 23:38:07 GMT -6
Jasmer! That's it! Yes, I suspected as much; figured it was either to prevent relic hunting, or to privatize research for the benefit of an upcoming publication (matter of fact...I can think of one upcoming publication that might just include the evidence Jerry was referring to).
Melani, I think we may have met back in June! Were you working the Keogh trail with Friends? I stopped by to see the Keogh marker, and we had a great conversation! I was the rookie - that was my first year volunteering at LBH...What a terrific experience!
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Post by Melani on Aug 30, 2009 0:22:07 GMT -6
Yup, that was me. Were you the young grad student? Nice to see you again! I think it was my best year so far--a whole lot of really great stuff happened.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Aug 30, 2009 12:45:28 GMT -6
That was me - nice to see you again, too! I am so delighted to be a part of Friends - it is a terrific organization, all of the members are super friendly, and I learned so much from you and some of the other members who I had a chance to listen to. Volunteering on the battlefield is something I'll remember for the rest of my life - and I am sure as heck going to try to make it out there again, next June (finances permitting)!
I agree 100% - a lot of wonderful things that weekend - it was a great time for me to get started with Friends! I got to meet Mike Donahue and Kate Hammond, and learned about a lot of exciting, upcoming projects for the battlefield! And I finally got a look at one of the northern fords, which Mike pointed out to me - the one ford is so darned close to Cemetery Ridge, I can easily picture a cavalry wing approaching that area of the field. Just a great experience!
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Post by bc on Aug 30, 2009 14:35:54 GMT -6
I didn't think they were keeping any secrets. I had a conversation with Kate Hammond and John Doerner over by the stone house this summer and they pointed out the ford D/Willy Bends location and the gravel pit areas. They didn't act like they were hiding anything. None of it is NPS property although some may be preservation trust property.
bc
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Aug 30, 2009 16:32:42 GMT -6
I don't think they are trying to hide the northern fords - ask, and they tell you - , but rather, I got the impression they aren't too eager to advertise the fords to the average tourist, because it is outside NPS grounds, and because of possible archaeological surveys there (which Jerry Jasmer alluded to). The ford locations are public knowledge; what isn't public knowledge are the archaeological findings (if any) that indicate battle-related movements/action in the vicinity of Ford D (beyond Cemetery Ridge).
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Post by Melani on Sept 14, 2009 14:42:07 GMT -6
There are definitely issues about privately-owned land around the park. The NPS probably doesn't want anybody getting shot by the neighbors.
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Post by shan on Nov 23, 2010 7:53:54 GMT -6
This maybe the wrong place to post this, but I asked if people had any opinion on this on the other board but nobody seemed to be prepared to offer an opinion so I thought I would try here.
Many scholars of this battle take it as a given that Crazy Horse and others used Deep Ravine as a highway in order to reach the crest of the ridge from whence they fell on Keoghs back. But if we step back for a moment it's one of those things that keeps being said without any reference to the practicalities of how this was achieved.
As we all know Deep Ravine is a long, deep, narrow ravine---and we have to bear in mind that as it moves up towards the head cut it was, so we are told, much deeper than it is now--- all of which, for those of us that have seen it, presents what seems to be a highly unlikely route for substantial numbers of mounted men to negotiate. Aside from the fact that there were undoubtedly a growing number of warriors on foot along it's length who would inevitably slow their progress, we know from stories of E troop men trying to hide in the deep grass and scrub that it must fairly choked with vegetation at various points. Finally, and this is the part that has always bothered me the most, how do numbers of mounted men exit the steep head cut area without presenting the left wing who are probably arriving on Cemetery Ridge around this time with a wonderful target of slow moving men and animals. No, forget about being a target, how do they manage to get out of there at all?
I remember a bell ringing rather loudly when I first read Lakota Noon in which Michno stated that the move towards MTF was alongside MTC rather than in and along it. Why do things the hard way when, no longer concerned about concealment, you can do it the easy way? I have the same feeling about Crazy Horse move's towards the spine of the ridge. Now I haven't been down as far as the spot where Calhoun Coulee branches off Deep Ravine, but from what I can see from photographs and maps, it seems to me that this would be a good spot for mounted men to exit the ravine and then ride along it's South side up towards the ridge. What do you guys think. It would certainly make for faster movement. Okay you would be highly visible for longer, but I'm not sure Crazy Horse would have been all that concerned about that at this stage.
Shan
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Post by Beth on Feb 25, 2015 19:50:44 GMT -6
I notice that some of the last posts in this thread mention an archeological survey. Was anything found?
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 26, 2015 5:50:32 GMT -6
Beth, Much was found, that gave some new insights as to positioning of groups and individual guns that were fired at different areas of the battlefield.
This may be a good time to bring up this portion of the battle(Ford D). Steve had some discussions last Summer about Ford D area maybe he could share some of that.
On a personal basis I don't think Custer ever got to Ford D, I think he was smacked in the face before he ever arrived at the area. For a long time I thought Crazy Horse traversed the entire village and attacked from that area. I still don't wholly discount it. There is talk of many shod hooves in and about the ford. Those most assuredly where from the NA's returning with cavalry horses, deemed worthy of keeping. Little can be stated as fact about this area. Anything I state about this area is opinion. Viola gives some insight along with other minimal NA info and it has been along time since reading.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 26, 2015 7:46:32 GMT -6
I joined the Friends of the Little Bighorn at the invitation by Donahue. He told me that he and Scott would present some findings both archeological (Scott) and historic photos (Donahue). We were going to walk to the Ford D area. Rain had created a situation where the NPS thought we could create damage. The presentation went on and we walked out the main gate to get a view.
The current road was created by removing materials from the Ford D area and filling in that drainage. So when there you must envision that you can ride form Ford D to the back side of Custer hill and don't have to climb up and down the entrance road. It wasn't there. Scott presented evidence that there was timber down below which fits some of the accounts of where I believe they said 6 troopers were found. They also present Kellogg's marker which was clearly visible in the grand opening of the new road. Scott attempted to locate the position and part of it is on private land.
Donahue had Benteen's map and noted a trail on it that leads toward Ford Ds. I had always thought you went down the NPS service road to get there but this looks like you could have ridden completely around the cemetery area and remained concealed.
Scott gave a presentation of the artifacts found and also a good reason that more is not found. They scraped the surface for materials in a large area which Donahue has pictures of the size and location. Along with the materials the artifacts that existed went to the new road construction.
On the back side drainage leading to LSH they recovered a 45-70 carbine. The metal portions only. Who knows how it got there or what it signifies.
They discussed the markers that at one time were down where the current trading post is located.
This year if the river is not flooding I want to float it see what I can from that perspective.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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