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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 26, 2014 9:23:37 GMT -6
Thank you Fred, I am really of the opinion that Crazy Horse had no impact on Reno, whatsoever. As he spent a great deal of time in prep for battle, Reno was contained and on hill by the time he arrived, so on fresh horses CH and his warriors returned to Custer's area much faster than many say. I believe that it was CH's arrival close to the exiting of the timber of the troopers that increased the Reno casualtiy rate in the valley and crossing the river. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by fred on Jan 26, 2014 9:34:37 GMT -6
I believe that it was CH's arrival close to the exiting of the timber of the troopers that increased the Reno casualtiy rate in the valley and crossing the river. This is an extremely good point and one I had not thought of. It could very well have been Crazy Horse's arrival and the perceived threat of a readiness to charge the timber that sped up the decision to bolt from the woods. I make a big issue of the fact the Indians were constantly threatening the troops' left flank, and that was their escape route. That, combined with this new threat perception was probably too much to bear. What a great job, Steve.Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by scottbono on Jan 26, 2014 13:26:46 GMT -6
Thank you Fred, I am really of the opinion that Crazy Horse had no impact on Reno, whatsoever. As he spent a great deal of time in prep for battle, Reno was contained and on hill by the time he arrived, so on fresh horses CH and his warriors returned to Custer's area much faster than many say. I believe that it was CH's arrival close to the exiting of the timber of the troopers that increased the Reno casualtiy rate in the valley and crossing the river. Regards AZ Ranger If any credence can be given to the maps drawn of the NA's camp circles, I've noticed the Ogllala circle was immediately adjacent to the Hunkpapa, in which case it might seem natural CH would've participated in the Reno fight. Given reports of CH's prep time, etc. it would explain, perhaps, why he arrived 'later' providing, maybe, that extra 'oomph' (not quite the military term, eh?) to force Reno from the timber.
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Post by fred on Jan 26, 2014 15:17:31 GMT -6
If any credence can be given to the maps drawn of the NA's camp circles, I've noticed the Ogllala circle was immediately adjacent to the Hunkpapa, in which case it might seem natural CH would've participated in the Reno fight. The best description I have seen of the camp circles comes in Doug Scott's new book: ➢ According to Douglas Scott, the camps were configured as follows: o Hunkpapa circle was the southernmost. o Just below and slightly northwest was the Blackfeet circle. o The Minneconjou circle was northeast of the Blackfeet and close to the river. o Due west of the Blackfeet was the Brulé circle. o Right next to the Brulé, slightly north and west, was the Oglala. o Near the river and at the mouth of Medicine Tail Coulee was the Sans Arc circle. Near the river, just to the north and west of the Sans Arc—but still across from the Medicine Tail ford—was the Cheyenne circle. [All from, Scott, Uncovering History, p. 26.] This is different from some maps, but I accept it coming from an archaeologist. The map referenced was drawn by someone named Tom Jonus and published by the University of Oklahoma Press. From the accounts I have read, Crazy Horse took his time, coming and going. Apparently, however, he wasn't the only one. This was a traditional battle ritual. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by alfheim1009 on Dec 27, 2016 23:24:16 GMT -6
Hi I am new here just learning my way around. I am writing a book about female warriors and so far this battle has the most with a count of 5. Buffalo Calf Road woman it has been recently released from one on the clans fighting that she knocked Custer off his horse leading to his death. Has anyone heard about this? My book is set for publication this Spring and want to be accurate. If it is a noted part of history but questionable I want to be factual about it even though the genre is Historical Novel. I think the role of females who chose the life of a warrior has been unsung and it is fascinating how gender rolls were so different and so much more egalitarian than the Europeans of that same time. Anything you'd like to share if used I will credit it.
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Post by alfheim1009 on Dec 27, 2016 23:52:57 GMT -6
Oh and I love History but I am a novice compared to the obvious wealth of knowledge available on this site. It is in far more depth and thought than any research I have been able to find. At any rate anyone interested in helping me see the real picture I would be extremely appreciative and as I said I will give credit to anyone for anything I use. So please excuse me for my obvious questions I ask because you guys are into minute detail and I respect your work. I can't match your knowledge but I think I can write a book good enough to make people ask questions that have gone unasked by the general public far too long. Oh and I own a book called Army Life On The Pacific owned and signed on the title page by BRI. Gen George B Dandy. It is said his book was recovered in the skin of a Sioux. So obviously I am looking to try and answer where the most likely unwitting donor came from. Its $500 to get the test to prove it is skin but human skin has a pore pattern unlike any other animal and the sales from the first book will go to proving the skin on the second one I will be writing. Thanks for your time.
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Post by fred on Dec 28, 2016 19:13:06 GMT -6
I am writing a book about female warriors and so far this battle has the most with a count of 5. First of all, on a site like this you need to be more specific. Define, "female warriors." I can give you six off the top of my head, six who participated or were in the mix. I can also give you the names of several thousand who were known to be there or could have been there. So specificity is key here. Please do not take this as an insult, but that is a bunch of bunk. Indian clans/bands/societies/tribes, etc., are always coming up with these cockamamie tales of derring-do and if I had a nickel for every story I have read about someone killing Custer, I would be a rather wealthy man... or at least wealthier than I am. If I may give you a piece of advice, telling that tale with a straight face in any book will mark you as a bit of a kook and no reputable LBH scholar, writer, or enthusiast will take anything else you say seriously. My advice would extend to the point of, OK, include it, but do so with a very large heap of skepticism... and print your source so everyone can have a good laugh. If what you are writing is a novel, then all bets are off. Still, you would bring a lot more realism to the subject were you to stick to the known facts and play your subjects off of those. No one knew Custer was at that fight; no one recognized him; and certainly no woman-- warrior or otherwise-- knocked him off his horse. In fact, while we cannot prove it one way or another, I would be willing to bet the ranch no one knocked Custer off anything. As for the "egalitarian" part of it, while women played a major role, it was a major role in support. The damage done to men like Isaiah Dorman came well after Ol' Teat was pretty much incapacitated. In fact, if I am not mistaken, there is an extremely fine article in the latest edition of Montana, The Magazine of Western History about the role women played. You might want to check that out before putting the period to your work. It was written by an extremely good writer/researcher named Leila Monaghan. If you have any other questions, please just ask. You will get some pretty good advice here. I wish you the best... and Happy New Year. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Dec 29, 2016 3:13:38 GMT -6
Hi Fred Happy New Year
I would be willing to bet the ranch no one knocked Custer off anything Do you think there was an orderly dismount on LSH ? Best Regards Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 29, 2016 5:49:37 GMT -6
Hi Wild and Fred
Happy New Year to you both.
I think it was hasty dismount but if you have time to place horses to shoot them and use them for cover than you were probably not knocked off your horse.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Dec 29, 2016 6:21:56 GMT -6
Hi AZ Seasonal greetings I think it was hasty dismount but if you have time to place horses to shoot them and use them for cover than you were probably not knocked off your horse. There is only one question here . Was Custer under fire when the command was stopped? The field would suggest that men were being knocked off their horses left right and centre. And we must not forget those Indian drawings showing this very occurrance. Best wishes Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 29, 2016 7:35:33 GMT -6
Hi AZ Seasonal greetings I think it was hasty dismount but if you have time to place horses to shoot them and use them for cover than you were probably not knocked off your horse.There is only one question here . Was Custer under fire when the command was stopped? The field would suggest that men were being knocked off their horses left right and centre. And we must not forget those Indian drawings showing this very occurrance. Best wishes Richard Hi Richard I have no doubt that soldiers were knocked off horses. So if Custer means the whole command that would be different answer. I think some of Indians accounts describe the person as General Custer himself. That I do not believe. I believe Custer was a horseman and could ride with an independent seat with full use of arms. I think he was fully capable of repelling any Indian that chose to close in on him. I think he dismounted and fired numerous times before he killed. Regards Steve
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Post by fred on Dec 29, 2016 11:19:25 GMT -6
Happy New Year to all of you, Ian, Steve, Richard. Sorry I have been away from all this, but it seems hospitals have taken much of my time of late... and threaten to do so again, shortly.
Anyway,
... no, I do not believe soldiers were "knocked" from their horses, at least not on Last Stand Hill. If you are talking about Cemetery Ridge, well then, that is a different matter, and Strategy goes into that little episode in some depth. I do not believe there were warriors on Last Stand Hill when Custer reached it. As the fighting progressed and Indians got closer, well, then you have Indians on the hilltop. By that time, however, I do not believe there were any troops still mounted and E Company with a handful of mounted troops had already descended from the hilltop. What sense would there be in remaining mounted?
Best wishes and again, Happy New Year to all, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 29, 2016 13:19:38 GMT -6
aflheim1009,
There is an excellent story of a NA woman/warrior saving her brother at the Battle of the Rosebud. The story has many attributions by the warriors there. The LBH stuff, not so much. And, as Fred states nobody knew who GAC was until after the battle. But, a novel is a novel. Then again, if ands and buts were candy and nuts.
Happy New Year to all.
Regards, Tom
PS good luck with the book.
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Post by benteen on Dec 29, 2016 15:48:54 GMT -6
aflheim1009, There is an excellent story of a NA woman/warrior saving her brother at the Battle of the Rosebud. The story has many attributions by the warriors there. The LBH stuff, not so much. And, as Fred states nobody knew who GAC was until after the battle. But, a novel is a novel. Then again, if ands and buts were candy and nuts. Happy New Year to all. Regards, Tom PS good luck with the book. Tom, Excellent. I believe the Indians refer to the Rosebud battle as "The battle where a women saved her brother". I join the others in wishing everyone a happy, healthy, and safe New Year. Also come to the understanding that I am right about everything about this battle Be Well Dan
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 29, 2016 17:27:51 GMT -6
Nice try Dan
Happy New Year!!!
Today is Scott's birthday.
My nephew Mark is also a Marine. He got out as a Sergeant and received a purple heart. We three Marines were talking and Mark brought up his purple heart. Scott told that he could run faster than him. Mark looked at me for help and I told him I would shoot the enemy before he could shoot me. No sympathy in our family. We did loose our Marine Corps major a few years ago but still have a submarine commander in the in-laws.
My grandfather was in the 5th cavalry in 1920. My Dad was in the Army during WWII and also reached the rank of Sgt. My other brother Craig was in the Navy. He died in a car accident. Our family get together used to have a lot of vets in attendance. Now it is just 3 Marines. Semper Fi
Steve
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