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Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 19:04:23 GMT -6
I'll have you know that I learned anal orifice in the fourth grade.
When you raise you level of knowledge above that of a five year old, you will be treated in a manner that is consistent with that elevated level of knowledge. On the other hand if you continue on the path you have embarked on, running your mouth and closing your eyes and ears you will be treated in any such manner that I deem appropriate.
I don't work for a Fortune 500 company, but I do know some little bit about the military and how it operates. I have attempted both to share and suggest to you. You pay no heed to anything I or others say. OK that's alright, but at the same time, don't come here peddling the same trash others have and expect to be received with anything other than scorn.
I told you once I call them as I see them and don't give a damn who likes or dislikes it. If I think you are acting like an anal orifice, I will call you an anal orifice Sonny.
DAMNED CENSORS
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Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 19:11:18 GMT -6
Shaw: Reno could not be the last to leave the timber. He had to lead the breakout/attack. It is an altogether different situation that Ney faced during a retreat. It was Ney's responsibility to insure the retreat was successfully completed. Jonathan Wainwright did the same thing when the US/Philippine Army retreated into Bataan, last man across the bridge before it was blown. That was his place, that was Ney's place. Reno's place was in the van, in the lead.
When the regiment (-) retrograded from Weir point, that was a retreat. As far as I can tell it was near textbook, with Godfrey's company being the DLIC, and remained so until breaking contact.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 19:15:11 GMT -6
I'll have you know that I learned not a very nice person in the fourth grade. When you raise you level of knowledge above that of a five year old, you will be treated in a manner that is consistent with that elevated level of knowledge. On the other hand if you continue on the path you have embarked on, running you mouth and closing your eyes and ears you will be treated in any such manner that I deem appropriate. I don't work for a Fortune 500 company, but I do know some little bit about the military and how it operates. I have attempted both to share and suggest to you. You pay no heed to anything I or others say. OK that's alright, but at the same time, don't come here peddling the same trash other have and expected to be received with anything other than scorn. I told you once I call them as I see them and don't give a damn who likes or dislikes it. If I think you are acting like an not a very nice person, I will call you an not a very nice person Sonny. Giving my opinion is no more running my mouth than you giving yours. Giving an opinion that is different than yours does not equate to not being a nice person. Best we just ignore each other's posts. I have the same level of respect for you and your opinions as you do mine. Best to just leave it there.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 23, 2015 19:20:19 GMT -6
What would have made a difference was Custer and the rest of the command supporting Reno as he said he would. The scout to the left should have been handled by a junior officer. Another junior officer should have been with the packs, not an experienced combat officer.
What you don't seem to understand is that there are limitations as to what Benteen and Reno could do with the resources they had, and the limiting factors they were faced with.
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Post by chris on Jan 23, 2015 19:24:16 GMT -6
Shaw, I suppose we should both define a bad day. I'm not much interested in the "what ifs" or demeanor of the participants in LBH. The "what were's" are tough enough. Perhaps someone else will answer your question. Best, c.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 23, 2015 19:30:02 GMT -6
By the way Shaw is taking a lot of grief for Scar.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 19:30:33 GMT -6
The difference is that I can back mine up with fact, and you back yours with zippidy do da, rumors, slander, false statement, physical impossibilities and no goddamned knowledge of tactics or tactical procedures. You bring a butter knife to a gun fight sonny and I am supposed to respect that.
Your opinions are the anal orifice of your being. It is your opinions and the mental process you go through forming them that is suspect. It's not personal, it's professional.
No I am not going to ignore your posts and I will tell you why. There are hundreds of people who visit here each day and they see what you write. They form opinions based upon that reading, and you are feeding them false information. It was this same false information you came here armed with. You and those like you are the root of the problem concerning this battle. That same false information has been floating out there from the time of the battle until Fluffy shuffled off. It is only after her death that truth stuck its ugly head out. So you want to know my motivation for raking your tender ass over the coals, it is simply that you perpetuate a lie.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 19:34:28 GMT -6
Yes Shaw is taking heat for Tender Ass, and it is heat he does not deserve. He has always presented himself here as completely open and totally balanced.
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Post by chris on Jan 23, 2015 19:36:18 GMT -6
Did I screw up again? If so, apologies to Shaw. c.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 19:53:48 GMT -6
Chris: I don't think you screwed up.
Shaw wrote his masters thesis on T. E. Lawrence. If he never did another damned thing his recognition of Lawrence's importance is testimony in and of itself, that he has his sheets together. He can debate until the cows come home with me or anyone he so choses, and it is just that debate, the health of what we come here for.
Contrast that with Scarpuss. He knows nothing, and does not want it any other way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 20:07:51 GMT -6
No problem. I've read Connell's book. Can't disagree that the Mosby encounter was a bad day, but June 25, 1876 was worse. More dead and longer term ramfication for Reno. Good point though. I stand amended. I think Reno could have done better by not panicking (mount up, dismount, mount up). By being among the last to leave the timber rather than the first. He vaguely reminds me of the captain of the Costa Concordia. Tripping into a lifeboat before all the passengers have departed the ship. I get it that the situation he was placed in, given the resources he had, limited his response. It's his demeanor that I am addressing and how it transferred to the situation. When the Weir point expedition drew NA response, Reno and Benteen didn't panic. They retreated under control. It wasn't pretty, but it wasn't a rout. I know, different terrain, Benteen was there to steady the situation, maybe not quite as many NA's. As I said, Reno is tragic. I wouldn't brand him a coward. Tough situation. Collision of events that he was not up to handling including the way he deported himself. Put Reno on the scout to the south of the village and have Benteen charge the camp. Does everyone think things would have been the same? Just asking... Shaw, Believe me I'm not piling on. Reno had a previous bad day: "His eagerness to escape from the valley might be traced to an unpleasant Civil War experience . In the spring of 1865 his regiment was chasing a Confederate guerrilla known as the Gray Ghost— John Singleton Mosby—chasing him with very little success until one day they came upon Mosby chatting with a few men in the village of Hamilton. Delighted by such good luck, Reno spurred forward and the Gray Ghost fled in panic up the road to Middleburg. Then from the woods alongside Middleburg Road came a fusillade of bullets. Twenty-one of Reno’s men dropped from the saddle." Connell, Evan S. (2011-04-01). Son of the Morning Star: Custer and the Little Bighorn (p. 14). Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Kindle Edition. Agree Shaw. Had Reno kept his wits about him then things could have been different. Losing his head cost him 1/3 of his men. Perhaps a cooler head, maybe Benteen, would have been better to lead the initial attack/retreat. Reno had very little experience when it came to fighting Indians.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 20:21:02 GMT -6
The number of Indians that surrounded Reno had something to do with him losing a third of his men.
You have been challenged yesterday and again today to relate how it could have been done better.
You are critical of performance but do not know how to perform. That is like telling Daffy Duck he does not know how to fly when you yourself can't fly either.
Reno did it by the book, right by the book, despite his mental anguish. As far as leaving people behind, a breakout is a ---Here I come ready or not operation--- that must be decided upon and executed with rapidity for any chance of working. You can't prove me wrong can you, because you don't know the book, and there in Sunshine is the nub of the problem
Once again, what could have, under the exact same set of circumstances, been done better, more effectively, differently, to preclude those casualties you grind this man into the sand for. You don't frigging know, yet that does not stop you from a vile form of diarrhea of the mouth. PUT UP OR SHUT UP SONNY.
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Post by Beth on Jan 23, 2015 20:32:18 GMT -6
I am not sure that Reno was ever praised for what he did. Most point to it as an indication, that he had lost balance, due to his experience in the valley, primarily with brains being splattered all over him. No one to my knowledge gives him a free pass. Of course his buddy was much closer than the timber area, the valley was still full of Indians, and many of those men left behind opted not to go. Reno was clearly shaken, after all we pick the Renos of the world from the human race. Benteen was obviously the lead agent in the reorganization and consolidation phase. Now mine to you, Tell me based upon your reading how Reno could have done it either differently or better in the valley. Careful here, and please don't tell me he conducted a retreat, or you will be shot before sunrise. Tell me how, given the exact same situation confronting Reno and Benteen, when Benteen arrives how it could have been done better or differently? The ball is in your court. I expect clear concise answers with no I hate Reno, I hate Benteen Custer fanboy stuff. Pure sound tactical decision making. You are the one that says these two were bad boys. Show us how, by showing us what they should have done. It is OK to decline, but if you do, do not open your mouth again about how bad they were. For me the biggest problem is inconsistency and too many holes in the testimony/stories from Reno and Benteen. If they truly did try their best and gave everything they could that day, then I stand correct. My opinion is they didn't. 1. Reno on being asked about his advance and dismount at the RCOI, “I could see Indians coming out from a ravine where they evidently had hid themselves…I said to myself at once that I could not successfully make an offensive charge. Their numbers had thrown me on the defensive.” After further questioning on the second day, “It was afterward developed that if I had gone two or three hundred yards further, I should have thrown my command into a ditch”. So why did he order dismount? Because of numbers? His second statement would indicate he wasn’t aware of the ditch until afterwards. 2. Only one casualty on the mounted advance. One confirmed death in the timber and a small number of additionally injured. Why was he so quick to back pedal? 3. The “order” to leave timber; Per Reno on the decision to leave the timber for Reno Hill, “…I would lose part of the command”. Despite recognizing this risk he did not in any way attempt to mitigate the risk. No rear guard action; just a panicked retreat. On further questioning; Q – State what became of the wounded men that were left in the timber? A. I suppose the Indians killed. Q – What steps were taken to bring them out of there? A. I could not make any efforts; none were made. Interesting to note that while he openly admits he made no provisions for the wounded, he makes a statement concerning the fact that Weir left one man behind on the return from Weir Pt. Seems a little desparate to me. 4. Reno and the accusations that he was drunk. On the 24th his flask is held by Davern, as is typical; on the 25th his quart of Whiskey is in his breast pocket. A number of witnesses have claimed he was drunk. He gets into a fight with Frett who claims he was drunk, whiskey in hand. Why would a civilian lie about that? 5. Reno claims he did not have to encourage the troops on the hill, “I saw no occasion for encouraging either officers or men”, which contradicts his counter argument against Frett, “and I found a good many men and packers who were skulking.” He goes on to say, “I had been there several times to drive out men.” 6. Timing issue, by all accounts the Indians had retreated back to the village no later than 9pm. Reno says he didn’t have a drink until the fighting had stopped after 12am. “I did not drink a drop of whiskey until the firing had ceased – about 12 o’clock at night.” 7. On the move off Reno Hill to the north, Reno and Benteen contradict each other. Reno says order was given by him. Benteen says no order was given. Weir took off on his own, followed afterwards by Benteen. 8. Reno says he gave both orders to move north and retreat to south; later says it was Lt. Hare who gave the order. Leads to the question, who was in charge and what was Reno doing? 9. On the sound of gunfire and volley fire – both Reno and Benteen (B claims he heard a few shots when first at LBH river and a few when he got to Reno Hill; no volley fire) claim not to have heard it or discussed it. Numerous witnesses claim otherwise. 10. Another timing problem for me is the move north. Fred has in his timeline the GAC engagement ending at 4.40; at 4.45 Indians start the move towards Weir Pt/Benteen identifies the position as untenable. The Indians have now been in battle for approx. 3 hours. They have just inflicted a massive defeat on the 7th Cav with 200 plus dead troopers and officers laying in the field of battle. The Indians only took 5 minutes to celebrate, scalp, mutilate, and pillage before advancing towards the troops on Weir Pt? I believe Godfrey, McDougall, Davern, Martini could have been closer to the departure time than Edgerly – 5.00pm. Would add further questions to what exactly was going on for 2 plus hours on Reno Hill. According to Davern no skirmish lines were put out until after the command had returned from Weir Pt. No defensive precautions because the Indians had moved north to tackle GAC. 11. Benteen statement at the RCOI when asked about Reno – “He was as cool as he is now….had lost his hat.” 12. Benteen was asked did he seek permission to proceed towards GAC, “Not at all; I supposed GAC was able to take care of himself.” This despite having seen Reno whooped and an order to “be quick.” Benteen also stated that he moved at a trot from the moment he left GAC to when he met Reno on Reno Hill. I find this remarkably strange considering orders to "be quick" and knowledge the command was engaged ahead. Weir on a number occassions expresses frustration. 13. Reno clearly contradicts himself by saying he had since learnt GAC command was alienated by the time he had retreated to Reno Hill. He knew this not to be true because of the gunfire and reported volley fire. But it fit the narrative. 14. Wasting 30 mins of his time and others to search for the body of his Adjutant. While I accept previous comments about him being an officer and desire to have his body returned, I do not believe Reno went down to recover important documents or anything such. A wedding ring and keys is all that was recovered. His body was found at the bottom of the hill by the river. Reno and others spent approx.. 30 mins looking for him; would suggest that the Indians had vacated the area. Per Reno, “he was my Adjutant and a great favorite and friend of mine.” He mentions nothing about recovering important papers or documents. 15. On the retreat to Reno Hill, losses 1/3 of his command in a panicked, chaotic, every man for himself and then claims on reaching the top that it wasn't a retreat it was a "charge". Really!?! While all of this is ground long covered, it makes up some of the reasons why I have suspicions about the behavior and actions of Reno and Benteen. What if Reno had held his skirmish line for 10 more minutes, held the timber for fifteen more before overseeing an organized retreat? Would the 500 or so Indians that left to go fight GAC been held in for 30 more minutes? Would that have made the slightest bit of difference? Would the extra minutes have allowed Keogh to hold the line till GAC regrouped with him? Would Benteen have continued past Reno Hill (since Reno would still be in the valley) to Weir Pt to show the Indians additional force? How would the Indians have reacted if Reno had held, GAC brings his command to action and Benteen comes over the hill? I don’t know….maybe they all would have died that day. Maybe the DeRubio was right, they survived because of Reno. Crap crap crap crap. I've just spent several hours writing a response and lost it when someone asked me to google something for them! Believe me when I say it was brilliant and poked through your arguements with sound reasoning point by point. A masterpeice of logic and cool anylisis. I will now read everyone else's reply and see if I need to add my own two cents. Beth Beth
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Post by Beth on Jan 23, 2015 20:53:29 GMT -6
Scar, so as to not be hazing I will pick on one item at a time. Item (10) Squaws and non combatants did the mutilations. How do you arrive at 2 hours doing nothing on Reno Hill? What time did Reno's men begin break out? How long did it take to achieve the summit? How long did it take to regroup? How long were they fighting when Benteen arrived? Tell the truth, did you really get Fred's book in a day and a half over a weekend? Have you read it? Do you comprehend time lines? You can't just pick and choose your points unless you have an agenda, do you? Why do they need to if they have wives, parents, grandparents, sons and daughters looking out for them. They were warriors, they did the fighting. Others took care of the rest. It wasn't about personal riches. It was about fighting. Then why wasn't Davern setting them up? Do you think that they just stood their on that hill top in stop motion until Reno returned? Do you really think that they even needed Reno to say the words "Set up the defenses" On other timelines. I know that this might come as a shock, but others have a reason to make their timeline different to prove their point. Fred isn't trying to prove a point. He is taking reported times, tying them to events to get a common timeline. Remember there was a local time and a headquarters time. What some people will do is that the two most extreme views of the time between event one and two and take it as set in stone. They might be looking at Private John for one time and Corp Doe for another. They want times, to prove their facts, not facts to prove their times. There is a difference. Yes you do have an agenda. You are going on the premise that Custer was the golden boy and betrayed by a drunk Reno and a resentful Benteen. Once you drop that mindset and look at all the information instead of cherry picking what you want to reinforce your view, you will never be open to others. If after you have read all the info out there, the entire RCOI report instead of just quotes, diaries, archeological information and Indian interviews and you still feel that your premise is valid then that's great. You have done your own research and come to your own conclusions instead of taking something that was spoonfed to you by authors who are trying to sell books. Oh and on those authors? Check what else they wrote. Is it a continous series of books about Custer, Indian wars, Western History, or anything else that shows they have done their reseach do they skip around and write about whatever they please. Check their footnotes. Are they citing orginal sources or are they using someone elses work and repackaging it. Finally check their dedications and credits. Seriously, see if they are thanking a lot of researchers or if they are thanking librarians and other people who you would come into contact with if you were doing your own research. Also ask questions of those who know. You don't have to take them for their word but it will help direct you to the enformation you want or need. Beth
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Post by Beth on Jan 23, 2015 20:56:31 GMT -6
No problem. I've read Connell's book. Can't disagree that the Mosby encounter was a bad day, but June 25, 1876 was worse. More dead and longer term ramfication for Reno. Good point though. I stand amended. I think Reno could have done better by not panicking (mount up, dismount, mount up). By being among the last to leave the timber rather than the first. He vaguely reminds me of the captain of the Costa Concordia. Tripping into a lifeboat before all the passengers have departed the ship. I get it that the situation he was placed in, given the resources he had, limited his response. It's his demeanor that I am addressing and how it transferred to the situation. When the Weir point expedition drew NA response, Reno and Benteen didn't panic. They retreated under control. It wasn't pretty, but it wasn't a rout. I know, different terrain, Benteen was there to steady the situation, maybe not quite as many NA's. As I said, Reno is tragic. I wouldn't brand him a coward. Tough situation. Collision of events that he was not up to handling including the way he deported himself. Put Reno on the scout to the south of the village and have Benteen charge the camp. Does everyone think things would have been the same? Just asking... Shaw, Believe me I'm not piling on. Reno had a previous bad day: "His eagerness to escape from the valley might be traced to an unpleasant Civil War experience . In the spring of 1865 his regiment was chasing a Confederate guerrilla known as the Gray Ghost— John Singleton Mosby—chasing him with very little success until one day they came upon Mosby chatting with a few men in the village of Hamilton. Delighted by such good luck, Reno spurred forward and the Gray Ghost fled in panic up the road to Middleburg. Then from the woods alongside Middleburg Road came a fusillade of bullets. Twenty-one of Reno’s men dropped from the saddle." Connell, Evan S. (2011-04-01). Son of the Morning Star: Custer and the Little Bighorn (p. 14). Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Kindle Edition. Can someone give me the orginal source for the "Mount up, dismount, mount up thing? I have yet to find it. Beth
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