Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 17:58:50 GMT -6
Reno did not retreat. Reno could not retreat. Reno was surrounded which prevents a retreat. Reno conducted a breakout. By definition a break out is an attack. When he said he charged, that is exactly what he did attack.
Reno was in the exact same situation that the 1st Marine Division found itself in at Chosin in November-December 1950. They were surrounded. The broke out by attacking on an axis Koto Ri to Wonson. The 3rd Infantry Division was the Marines Benteen.
To retreat you must have an open rear area. The conventional method is to retrograde by bounds. No such area existed for either Reno or the 1st MARDIV.
It was not a retreat. It was a breakout from encirclement, and the only way under God's heaven to do that is to attack. When you do attack though it is done with the full knowledge that it is going to be of great cost, usually very great cost. And so it was. It was also a complete success.
Last Edit: Jan 23, 2015 18:08:49 GMT -6 by quincannon
I am not sure that Reno was ever praised for what he did. Most point to it as an indication, that he had lost balance, due to his experience in the valley, primarily with brains being splattered all over him. No one to my knowledge gives him a free pass. Of course his buddy was much closer than the timber area, the valley was still full of Indians, and many of those men left behind opted not to go.
Reno was clearly shaken, after all we pick the Renos of the world from the human race. Benteen was obviously the lead agent in the reorganization and consolidation phase.
Now mine to you,
Tell me based upon your reading how Reno could have done it either differently or better in the valley. Careful here, and please don't tell me he conducted a retreat, or you will be shot before sunrise.
Tell me how, given the exact same situation confronting Reno and Benteen, when Benteen arrives how it could have been done better or differently?
The ball is in your court. I expect clear concise answers with no I hate Reno, I hate Benteen Custer fanboy stuff. Pure sound tactical decision making. You are the one that says these two were bad boys. Show us how, by showing us what they should have done. It is OK to decline, but if you do, do not open your mouth again about how bad they were.
For me the biggest problem is inconsistency and too many holes in the testimony/stories from Reno and Benteen. If they truly did try their best and gave everything they could that day, then I stand correct. My opinion is they didn't.
1. Reno on being asked about his advance and dismount at the RCOI, “I could see Indians coming out from a ravine where they evidently had hid themselves…I said to myself at once that I could not successfully make an offensive charge. Their numbers had thrown me on the defensive.” After further questioning on the second day, “It was afterward developed that if I had gone two or three hundred yards further, I should have thrown my command into a ditch”. So why did he order dismount? Because of numbers? His second statement would indicate he wasn’t aware of the ditch until afterwards.
2. Only one casualty on the mounted advance. One confirmed death in the timber and a small number of additionally injured. Why was he so quick to back pedal?
3. The “order” to leave timber; Per Reno on the decision to leave the timber for Reno Hill, “…I would lose part of the command”. Despite recognizing this risk he did not in any way attempt to mitigate the risk. No rear guard action; just a panicked retreat. On further questioning; Q – State what became of the wounded men that were left in the timber? A. I suppose the Indians killed. Q – What steps were taken to bring them out of there? A. I could not make any efforts; none were made.
Interesting to note that while he openly admits he made no provisions for the wounded, he makes a statement concerning the fact that Weir left one man behind on the return from Weir Pt. Seems a little desparate to me.
4. Reno and the accusations that he was drunk. On the 24th his flask is held by Davern, as is typical; on the 25th his quart of Whiskey is in his breast pocket. A number of witnesses have claimed he was drunk. He gets into a fight with Frett who claims he was drunk, whiskey in hand. Why would a civilian lie about that?
5. Reno claims he did not have to encourage the troops on the hill, “I saw no occasion for encouraging either officers or men”, which contradicts his counter argument against Frett, “and I found a good many men and packers who were skulking.” He goes on to say, “I had been there several times to drive out men.”
6. Timing issue, by all accounts the Indians had retreated back to the village no later than 9pm. Reno says he didn’t have a drink until the fighting had stopped after 12am. “I did not drink a drop of whiskey until the firing had ceased – about 12 o’clock at night.”
7. On the move off Reno Hill to the north, Reno and Benteen contradict each other. Reno says order was given by him. Benteen says no order was given. Weir took off on his own, followed afterwards by Benteen.
8. Reno says he gave both orders to move north and retreat to south; later says it was Lt. Hare who gave the order. Leads to the question, who was in charge and what was Reno doing?
9. On the sound of gunfire and volley fire – both Reno and Benteen (B claims he heard a few shots when first at LBH river and a few when he got to Reno Hill; no volley fire) claim not to have heard it or discussed it. Numerous witnesses claim otherwise.
10. Another timing problem for me is the move north. Fred has in his timeline the GAC engagement ending at 4.40; at 4.45 Indians start the move towards Weir Pt/Benteen identifies the position as untenable. The Indians have now been in battle for approx. 3 hours. They have just inflicted a massive defeat on the 7th Cav with 200 plus dead troopers and officers laying in the field of battle. The Indians only took 5 minutes to celebrate, scalp, mutilate, and pillage before advancing towards the troops on Weir Pt? I believe Godfrey, McDougall, Davern, Martini could have been closer to the departure time than Edgerly – 5.00pm. Would add further questions to what exactly was going on for 2 plus hours on Reno Hill. According to Davern no skirmish lines were put out until after the command had returned from Weir Pt. No defensive precautions because the Indians had moved north to tackle GAC.
11. Benteen statement at the RCOI when asked about Reno – “He was as cool as he is now….had lost his hat.”
12. Benteen was asked did he seek permission to proceed towards GAC, “Not at all; I supposed GAC was able to take care of himself.” This despite having seen Reno whooped and an order to “be quick.” Benteen also stated that he moved at a trot from the moment he left GAC to when he met Reno on Reno Hill. I find this remarkably strange considering orders to "be quick" and knowledge the command was engaged ahead. Weir on a number occassions expresses frustration.
13. Reno clearly contradicts himself by saying he had since learnt GAC command was alienated by the time he had retreated to Reno Hill. He knew this not to be true because of the gunfire and reported volley fire. But it fit the narrative.
14. Wasting 30 mins of his time and others to search for the body of his Adjutant. While I accept previous comments about him being an officer and desire to have his body returned, I do not believe Reno went down to recover important documents or anything such. A wedding ring and keys is all that was recovered. His body was found at the bottom of the hill by the river. Reno and others spent approx.. 30 mins looking for him; would suggest that the Indians had vacated the area. Per Reno, “he was my Adjutant and a great favorite and friend of mine.” He mentions nothing about recovering important papers or documents.
15. On the retreat to Reno Hill, losses 1/3 of his command in a panicked, chaotic, every man for himself and then claims on reaching the top that it wasn't a retreat it was a "charge". Really!?!
While all of this is ground long covered, it makes up some of the reasons why I have suspicions about the behavior and actions of Reno and Benteen. What if Reno had held his skirmish line for 10 more minutes, held the timber for fifteen more before overseeing an organized retreat? Would the 500 or so Indians that left to go fight GAC been held in for 30 more minutes? Would that have made the slightest bit of difference? Would the extra minutes have allowed Keogh to hold the line till GAC regrouped with him? Would Benteen have continued past Reno Hill (since Reno would still be in the valley) to Weir Pt to show the Indians additional force? How would the Indians have reacted if Reno had held, GAC brings his command to action and Benteen comes over the hill? I don’t know….maybe they all would have died that day. Maybe the DeRubio was right, they survived because of Reno.
Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 18:05:35 GMT -6
Read what I wrote just above your last. Do you want Montrose to get his manual out again and provide a quote for you or will our more than fifty years of combined experience be enough.
Last Edit: Jan 23, 2015 18:06:25 GMT -6 by quincannon
Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 23, 2015 18:06:19 GMT -6
Oh, good.
Okay. Tell us, Shaw, how Reno could have extracted his command from the timber and arrived on Reno Hill with more men and mounts than he did for soon after use. It was a command decision based on what he could have known, adapting to realities then and en route, and what he had to have known was that the 7th wasn't capable of anything better than what he led them at. They could not fight from the saddle, they could not reload their pistols till in some protected environment. The hunting buffalo canard has been supposed to apply all over the field, but only Custer's guys tried to give up. "Oh, John!" And some shot themselves.
If I'm incorrect, tell us what could have been done different. We have maps and all this inspiring and handy jargon that Reno did not, but tell us how he could have done better. I think he did as good as he could with what he had to work with. Time it out, estimate casualties and what to do with them, explain the procedure of firing lines if you utilize them. Dismounted with horse holders since they could not fire carbines from the saddle on good days. Based on practice rounds allocated, why do you think they'd do better?
Last Edit: Jan 23, 2015 18:07:43 GMT -6 by Dark Cloud
".. all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed...." T.Jefferson, Declaration of Independence
Scar, have not read your whole post, but quart of whiskey in a breast pocket ! Wish I could find a shirt like. I will get back to your post after a drink.
Scar, have not read your whole post, but quart of whiskey in a breast pocket ! Wish I could find a shirt like. I will get back to your post after a drink.
Shaw, Believe me I'm not piling on. Reno had a previous bad day:
"His eagerness to escape from the valley might be traced to an unpleasant Civil War experience . In the spring of 1865 his regiment was chasing a Confederate guerrilla known as the Gray Ghost— John Singleton Mosby—chasing him with very little success until one day they came upon Mosby chatting with a few men in the village of Hamilton. Delighted by such good luck, Reno spurred forward and the Gray Ghost fled in panic up the road to Middleburg. Then from the woods alongside Middleburg Road came a fusillade of bullets. Twenty-one of Reno’s men dropped from the saddle."
Connell, Evan S. (2011-04-01). Son of the Morning Star: Custer and the Little Bighorn (p. 14). Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Kindle Edition.
I have a face that would stop a sundial - Charles Laughton
Scar, so as to not be hazing I will pick on one item at a time. Item (10) Squaws and non combatants did the mutilations. How do you arrive at 2 hours doing nothing on Reno Hill? What time did Reno's men begin break out? How long did it take to achieve the summit? How long did it take to regroup? How long were they fighting when Benteen arrived? Tell the truth, did you really get Fred's book in a day and a half over a weekend? Have you read it? Do you comprehend time lines? You can't just pick and choose your points unless you have an agenda, do you?
Scar, so as to not be hazing I will pick on one item at a time. Item (10) Squaws and non combatants did the mutilations. How do you arrive at 2 hours doing nothing on Reno Hill? What time did Reno's men begin break out? How long did it take to achieve the summit? How long did it take to regroup? How long were they fighting when Benteen arrived? Tell the truth, did you really get Fred's book in a day and a half over a weekend? Have you read it? Do you comprehend time lines? You can't just pick and choose your points unless you have an agenda, do you?
You don't think the warriors wanted a piece of the pie? Guns, ammo, uniforms, scalps etc?
Timeline 3pm to after 5pm. Benteen arrival to en-mass move out. Many sources had them moving out later than Fred went with. Just another option to consider. Reno had 30 mins free time to look for Adjutant. Per Davern, no defensive positions set up.
Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 18:37:19 GMT -6
Tom: I already mentioned the 1st Marine Division at Chosin to Scarface as being the exact same type of operation Reno conducted. There is another involving the 13th Demi-Brigade Legion Etranger at Bir Hakeim and a fairly well known German Field Marshall. the 13th broke out of their box (fortified position) which was surrounded.
The 1st MARDIV and the 13th Demi-Brigade both sustained a higher percentage of casualties KIA, WIA, MIA, than did Reno. Based upon this data alone Reno did a better job than the United States Marines AND The French Foreign Legion.
Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2015 18:41:30 GMT -6
You are not alone. Madam Fluffy and her pimp said the same thing. They destroyed the reputations of two men in the process. Funny thing though no one in the last 139 years has been able to prove it, and they have tried. You are the latest in a long line of assholes to try, but try anyway.
A few words of caution though. That 139 year long line of assholes have used the exact same arguments you are using now. Didn't do them a bit of good and it won't do you any good either.
Last Edit: Jan 23, 2015 18:46:27 GMT -6 by quincannon
You are not alone. Madam Fluffy and her pimp said the same thing. They destroyed the reputations of two men in the process. Funny thing though no one in the last 139 years has been able to prove it, and they have tried. You are the latest in a long line of assholes to try, but try anyway.
A few words of caution though. That 139 year long line of assholes have used the exact same arguments you are using now. Didn't do them a bit of good and it won't do you any good either.
Funny how you have to lower yourself to second grade language and petty insults rather than debating like an adult. If you have strong facts to back up your position maybe then you could share them and raise your level beyond that of a five year old.
No problem. I've read Connell's book. Can't disagree that the Mosby encounter was a bad day, but June 25, 1876 was worse. More dead and longer term ramfication for Reno. Good point though. I stand amended.
I think Reno could have done better by not panicking (mount up, dismount, mount up). By being among the last to leave the timber rather than the first. He vaguely reminds me of the captain of the Costa Concordia. Tripping into a lifeboat before all the passengers have departed the ship.
I get it that the situation he was placed in, given the resources he had, limited his response. It's his demeanor that I am addressing and how it transferred to the situation.
When the Weir point expedition drew NA response, Reno and Benteen didn't panic. They retreated under control. It wasn't pretty, but it wasn't a rout. I know, different terrain, Benteen was there to steady the situation, maybe not quite as many NA's.
As I said, Reno is tragic. I wouldn't brand him a coward. Tough situation. Collision of events that he was not up to handling including the way he deported himself.
Put Reno on the scout to the south of the village and have Benteen charge the camp. Does everyone think things would have been the same? Just asking...
Shaw, Believe me I'm not piling on. Reno had a previous bad day:
"His eagerness to escape from the valley might be traced to an unpleasant Civil War experience . In the spring of 1865 his regiment was chasing a Confederate guerrilla known as the Gray Ghost— John Singleton Mosby—chasing him with very little success until one day they came upon Mosby chatting with a few men in the village of Hamilton. Delighted by such good luck, Reno spurred forward and the Gray Ghost fled in panic up the road to Middleburg. Then from the woods alongside Middleburg Road came a fusillade of bullets. Twenty-one of Reno’s men dropped from the saddle."
Connell, Evan S. (2011-04-01). Son of the Morning Star: Custer and the Little Bighorn (p. 14). Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Kindle Edition.